Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party Wins in the Netherlands!

#51
#51
n_huffhines said:
It's intertwined enough that you have to admit that Christianity influenced WC. There is no way around that...but the truth is probably that Christianity moreso was influenced by western civilization for the purposes of this thread where we're talking about things like democracy and freedom of speech. The foundation was indisputably laid by Greco-Roman cultures.

And....the Islamic world was a big influence over the development of WC, too. If the Islamic world had been fused with Greco-Roman culture and Christianity hadn't, history and current Islam/Christianity would be much different.

en.wikipedia.org

Islamic world contributions to Medieval Europe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Christianity & Western Civilization absolutely developed alongside one another, shaped one another.

They are inextricably intertwined - we literally combine the two into one term: Western Christianity

Islam wasn’t fused with Greco-Roman though. Christianity was.

“Western civilization, broadly defined, finds its roots in the foundations laid by Greco-Roman civilization, and the tenets of Western Christianity.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] It has also been substantially influenced by societal influences from Germanic peoples, and by wider Judeo-Christian values.”

“Western culture is characterized by a host of artistic, philosophic, literary and legal themes and traditions. Christianity, primarily the Catholic Church,[17][18][19] and later Protestantism[20][21][22][23] has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization since at least the 4th century,[24][25][26][27][28] as did Judaism.[29][30][31][32]”

en.wikipedia.org

Western culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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#52
#52
85SugarVol said:
Christianity & Western Civilization absolutely developed alongside one another, shaped one another.

They are inextricably intertwined - we literally combine the two into one term: Western Christianity

Islam wasn’t fused with Greco-Roman though. Christianity was.

“Western civilization, broadly defined, finds its roots in the foundations laid by Greco-Roman civilization, and the tenets of Western Christianity.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] It has also been substantially influenced by societal influences from Germanic peoples, and by wider Judeo-Christian values.”

“Western culture is characterized by a host of artistic, philosophic, literary and legal themes and traditions. Christianity, primarily the Catholic Church,[17][18][19] and later Protestantism[20][21][22][23] has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization since at least the 4th century,[24][25][26][27][28] as did Judaism.[29][30][31][32]”

en.wikipedia.org

Western culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
There's actually a great book called Dominion by Tom Holland about just this thing. Nearly all of our concepts of freedom, natural law, human rights, etc. came from Christianity. Not Judaism, not Hinduism, not old Greek/Roman beliefs, not Islam- Christianity. Many of the things written in Paul's letters, for instance, were put down together as one philosophy for essentially the very first time; it was a revolution in more ways than one, and where some beliefs may have had nuggets before they never came to the whole truth (if you will).

The idea of human equality is the real big one that was a fairly foreign concept in those days and really even today in most of the world. We in the west take it for granted, and many Christians don't practice it, but at its roots the mainstream idea that all can be redeemed and equitable comes uniquely from actual Christian dogma.
 
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#53
#53
ButchPlz said:
There's actually a great book called Dominion by Tom Holland about just this thing. Nearly all of our concepts of freedom, natural law, human rights, etc. came from Christianity. Not Judaism, not Hinduism, not old Greek/Roman beliefs, not Islam- Christianity. Many of the things written in Paul's letters, for instance, were put down together as one philosophy for essentially the very first time; it was a revolution in more ways than one, and where some beliefs may have had nuggets before they never came to the whole truth (if you will).

The idea of human equality is the real big one that was a fairly foreign concept in those days and really even today in most of the world. We in the west take it for granted, and many Christians don't practice it, but at its roots the mainstream idea that all can be redeemed and equitable comes uniquely from actual Christian dogma.
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I was admittedly being a bit stylistic when I said “1000 texts, by 1000 authors, over 1000 years”.

But the volume of texts out there is staggering. It’s probably in the 1,000’s (plural). It’s been written about for centuries.

Here’s just 2 more -

press.uchicago.edu

History of Western Civilization

Renowned historian William H. McNeil provides a brilliant narrative chronology of the development of Western civilization, representing its socio-political as well as cultural aspects. This sixth edition includes new material for the twentieth-century period and completely revised...
press.uchicago.edu press.uchicago.edu

 
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#54
#54
n_huffhines said:
It's intertwined enough that you have to admit that Christianity influenced WC. There is no way around that...but the truth is probably that Christianity moreso was influenced by western civilization for the purposes of this thread where we're talking about things like democracy and freedom of speech. The foundation was indisputably laid by Greco-Roman cultures.

And....the Islamic world was a big influence over the development of WC, too. If the Islamic world had been fused with Greco-Roman culture and Christianity hadn't, history and current Islam/Christianity would be much different.

en.wikipedia.org

Islamic world contributions to Medieval Europe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
Democracy sure. but all of the freedoms and equality of western culture are EXTREMELY not Roman or Greek influenced.

Its kinda central to the whole Christianity bit, Christ was crucified because of the faith he was teaching, so were many early Christians. and it even flipped after they took over, the state religion was very heavily enforced, and depending on the era you were either prosecuted or taxed to worship otherwise. plenty of reason to think Freedom of Religion is not a Christian construction either, Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

Freedom of speech is sorta Roman, but a far more controlled "freedom" than we would recognize. You were allowed to speak in the Forum without prosecution, but if you ever left, or they dragged you out of there against your will, you absolutely could. and it was still restricted to Roman citizens. and there was nothing against a mob tearing you apart if they so wished. Not sure how this would be tied to Christianity.

Modern day citizenship concepts are also extremely different to Roman times, you either had to serve in the military, @hog88, or you had to prove your linage, and/or get rights of citizenship. Again not a Christian thing either.

voting was male landowners, not Roman or Greek. See equality for this.

absolutely no concept of equality, even amongst citizens for the romans. This was probably the biggest Christian influence that I can think of. All men were equal, women were equal to men. it was one of the things that ticked off a lot of people because they had been told they were special and good because they are rich, and even slaves were equal in God's eye. again in practice Christian's have largely failed in this, see slavery, but the religion was a major pusher of the concept of equality.

absolutely no due process. even self defense wasn't a truly formal right under the Romans. weaponry or any martial arts of defense was open for prosecution. it was rarely found liable, but it was there. definitely not Christian either.

government absolutely could take whatever from even citizens. render unto Caesar kinda makes this a non-Christian as well as non-Roman.
 
#56
#56
85SugarVol said:
Feels like you’re slipping into semantics here.

A particular influence can be 80% responsible for an outcome and be described as not being “specifically” or “solely” responsible for said outcome.

There have likely been over 1000 texts, from 1000 authors, over the last 1000 years detailing Christianity and its impact in the shaping of Western Civilization.

Are they all wrong?
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I don't know. I haven't read them. Would you have any examples of Christianity's influence on Western Civilization that make Western Civilization unique?
 
#57
#57
LouderVol said:
Democracy sure. but all of the freedoms and equality of western culture are EXTREMELY not Roman or Greek influenced.

Its kinda central to the whole Christianity bit, Christ was crucified because of the faith he was teaching, so were many early Christians. and it even flipped after they took over, the state religion was very heavily enforced, and depending on the era you were either prosecuted or taxed to worship otherwise. plenty of reason to think Freedom of Religion is not a Christian construction either, Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

Freedom of speech is sorta Roman, but a far more controlled "freedom" than we would recognize. You were allowed to speak in the Forum without prosecution, but if you ever left, or they dragged you out of there against your will, you absolutely could. and it was still restricted to Roman citizens. and there was nothing against a mob tearing you apart if they so wished. Not sure how this would be tied to Christianity.

Modern day citizenship concepts are also extremely different to Roman times, you either had to serve in the military, @hog88, or you had to prove your linage, and/or get rights of citizenship. Again not a Christian thing either.

voting was male landowners, not Roman or Greek. See equality for this.

absolutely no concept of equality, even amongst citizens for the romans. This was probably the biggest Christian influence that I can think of. All men were equal, women were equal to men. it was one of the things that ticked off a lot of people because they had been told they were special and good because they are rich, and even slaves were equal in God's eye. again in practice Christian's have largely failed in this, see slavery, but the religion was a major pusher of the concept of equality.

absolutely no due process. even self defense wasn't a truly formal right under the Romans. weaponry or any martial arts of defense was open for prosecution. it was rarely found liable, but it was there. definitely not Christian either.

government absolutely could take whatever from even citizens. render unto Caesar kinda makes this a non-Christian as well as non-Roman.
Click to expand...

It appears they didn't enjoy perfectly free speech (who does?) but this indicates it was an ideal. Sounds like the market did more to regulate speech than the government did.

1701297652897.png
 
#59
#59
EasternVol said:
I don't know. I haven't read them. Would you have any examples of Christianity's influence on Western Civilization that make Western Civilization unique?
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Here’s a good starter. There are literally 1,000’s.

press.uchicago.edu

History of Western Civilization

Renowned historian William H. McNeil provides a brilliant narrative chronology of the development of Western civilization, representing its socio-political as well as cultural aspects. This sixth edition includes new material for the twentieth-century period and completely revised...
press.uchicago.edu press.uchicago.edu

What’s your “Win” here? That Christianity only had a massive, outsized impact on Western Civilization, and wasn’t solely responsible?
 
#60
#60
85SugarVol said:
Here’s a good starter. There are literally 1,000’s.

press.uchicago.edu

History of Western Civilization

Renowned historian William H. McNeil provides a brilliant narrative chronology of the development of Western civilization, representing its socio-political as well as cultural aspects. This sixth edition includes new material for the twentieth-century period and completely revised...
press.uchicago.edu press.uchicago.edu

What’s your “Win” here? That Christianity only had a massive, outsized impact on Western Civilization, and wasn’t solely responsible?
Click to expand...
So you don't have any examples either, ok.
 
#61
#61
EasternVol said:
So you don't have any examples either, ok.
Click to expand...
Read if you’re interested. But we both know you’re not interested.

Only an absolute fool would try and discount the role Christianity played in the development of Western Civilization.

I noticed you didn’t want anything to do with Huff on the topic. Weak.
 
#62
#62
85SugarVol said:
Read if you’re interested. But we both know you’re not interested.

Only an absolute fool would try and discount the role Christianity played in the development of Western Civilization.

I noticed you didn’t want anything to do with Huff on the topic. Weak.
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I think I read it in 1978 or so at UT. Got a good grade too.
What Huff wrote is more contrary to your position than my position if i read it correctly.
 
#63
#63
EasternVol said:
I think I read it in 1978 or so at UT. Got a good grade too.
What Huff wrote is more contrary to your position than my position if i read it correctly.
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Huff and I do not agree on everything, and I don’t disagree completely with what he had to say - and I replied (out of principle) to the parts I objected to.

But even he begrudgingly admitted that Christianity & Western Civilization are intertwined. You cannot separate them.
 
#64
#64
85SugarVol said:
Huff and I do not agree on everything, and I don’t disagree completely with what he had to say - and I replied (out of principle) to the parts I objected to.

But even he begrudgingly admitted that Christianity & Western Civilization are intertwined. You cannot separate them.
Click to expand...
So what's a specific contribution of Christianity that's unique to Western civilization?
You may want to look at the initial contentions, which I had disputed, for context.
 
#65
#65
EasternVol said:
So what's a specific contribution of Christianity that's unique to Western civilization?
You may want to look at the initial contentions, which I had disputed, for context.
Click to expand...
There are many that were unique to Western Civilization at the time, and have been subsequently adopted by others.

And I’m not going to engage in “proving” to you that Christianity & Western Civilization have been intertwined for over 1500 years.

It is a known known. Read about it.

Or take it up with Huff -

n_huffhines said:
It's intertwined enough that you have to admit that Christianity influenced WC. There is no way around that.
Click to expand...

And you can “what if” about Islam fusing with Greco-Roman principles if you so choose. Didn’t happen like with Christianity, but I’m sure you’ll find the exercise fulfilling.
 
#66
#66
85SugarVol said:
There are many that were unique to Western Civilization at the time, and have been subsequently adopted by others.

And I’m not going to engage in “proving” to you that Christianity & Western Civilization have been intertwined for over 1500 years.

It is a known known. Read about it.

Or take it up with Huff -



And you can “what if” about Islam fusing with Greco-Roman principles if you so choose. Didn’t happen like with Christianity, but I’m sure you’ll find the exercise fulfilling.
Click to expand...
If it's so very clear then there should be numerous or profound ready examples of a unique characteristic from Christianity. I'm open to learn if there are.
Huff mentioned the link between Islam and Western Civilization. I don't disagree with him on that but it's not the gist of my argument.
For now I'll maintain my initial assertion that Western Civilization isn't uniquely Christian.
 
#67
#67
EasternVol said:
If it's so very clear then there should be numerous or profound ready examples of a unique characteristic from Christianity. I'm open to learn if there are.
Huff mentioned the link between Islam and Western Civilization. I don't disagree with him on that but it's not the gist of my argument.
For now I'll maintain my initial assertion that Western Civilization isn't uniquely Christian.
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That’s you just trying to move the goalposts. No one ever said Western Civilization is uniquely Christian. I certainly didn’t.

I have maintained, rightfully, that Christianity had a profound impact on Western Civilization, shaped it, and walked hand in hand with it.

You have consistently responded with “nuh-uh!”
 
#68
#68
85SugarVol said:
That’s you just trying to move the goalposts. No one ever said Western Civilization is uniquely Christian. I certainly didn’t.

I have maintained, rightfully, that Christianity had a profound impact on Western Civilization, shaped it, and walked hand in hand with it.

You have consistently responded with “nuh-uh!”
Click to expand...
So what's a specific contribution of Christianity that's unique to Western civilization?
 
#71
#71
EasternVol said:
So what's a specific contribution of Christianity that's unique to Western civilization?
Click to expand...
No.

This is even more disingenuous than show me the “proof” that Hamas seeks a genocide of the Jews.

This one is universally known and accepted.
 
#74
#74
n_huffhines said:
It appears they didn't enjoy perfectly free speech (who does?) but this indicates it was an ideal. Sounds like the market did more to regulate speech than the government did.

View attachment 598767
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considering that most of their elected officials were the richest and most powerful people in the empire, I don't think there was a lot of separation between the "market" and the government. A senator not doing business with you could be a death sentence for an entrepreneur.

while probably an exaggeration of the matter, the story of the flexible glass maker, makes the point that there wasn't any separation. "When the emperor asked if anybody else knew how to make this kind of flexible glass, the craftsman answered with a negative. Instead of receiving the reward he had hoped for, the glass-maker was executed, thus taking the secret of making flexible glass with him to his grave. The reason for this was that this Roman invention would cause gold to be devalued"
 
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