For those still on the fence about Jones....

#229
#229
VKAman said:
If Julio Jones got to Bama in 2007, Saban would have said "thanks, but we're rebuilding" and had him sit out a season.

Keep in mind, if someone's actually good, they can leave after three years whether you redshirt them or not, and you've just wasted a year for no reason. But yeah, coaches just do it all the time.
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Apples meet oranges. Was there a chance Julio Jones go pro early? Without question. Was there EVER a thought Dobbs would leave early? Uhhhhhhh not so much.
 
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#230
#230
I got to the thread late, and it seems to have jumped the shark a bit, but back to the original point...what would we have to do this year for me to be on board with Butch? I think it boils down to a few questions. Are we better now as a program than we were 3 years ago? And how long should a coach get to rebuild a program that was in as dire straights as the Vols were after the Dooley-debacle? The first question is easy for me to answer...YES. We a a ton better than we were three years ago. Will that translate to wins on the field? Probably, but that brings us to the second question, how long does butch get? If team 119 performs about the same as 118, I think it's cause for concern. We can second guess the decisions Butch made at QB all day, but that is with the benefit of hindsight. Clearly Dobbs was a better fit that Worley, given our lack of experience on the OL and Worley's lack of mobility. Part of the problem was that Dobbs is a guy who turns it up on game day. He wasn't even on the travel squad his freshman year when the team went to Florida. He plays better than he practices. I am expecting 9 wins and think this team may get to double digits before a bowl game. I know it's optimistic, but that's what I've got. We will beat FL, UGA, and Missouri this year. I think we can take the Hogs at home. OU will be a true early test, but I think we can get past them at home too. A win at Bama is unlikely, but stranger things have happened. Now that I think of it, we are going to Atlanta undefeated! I'm going to go place my bet on the Vols to win it all this year right now before odds makers catch on to what I've already figured out...I guess I jumped the shark too.
 
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#232
#232
VoL The Impaler said:
I agree with that, but let's look at this a different way. Do you think Saban could have come in to Tennessee after what Dooley did to the program and had the same results in the same time frame as he did at Alabama?

Not arguing, just asking..
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No, I will concede that Butch took over a more difficult rebuilding job. My point is simply that until Butch shows us something on the field, the jury is still out on exactly how good of a coach he is. So far, there are mixed results, some promising and some not so much.

On the positive side, his recruiting has been phenomenal. Additionally, he has out coached Steve Spurrier two years in a row now, and his game plan and coaching job in the 2013 South Carolina game was truly amazing as that was a game we had no business winning. Even though he is 0-2 against Georgia, his game plans against the Bulldogs have also been great, as we had no business even being competitive in those two games.

On the negative side, we have also lost some games that we had no business losing. There was simply no excuse for the 2013 loss to Vanderbilt or the 2014 loss to Florida. We had the talent to win both of those games. Additionally, his inability to see that Josh Dobbs was by far and away the most capable quarterback on our roster last season had me concerned. I can somewhat understand why he had Dobbs behind Worley given the fact that Worley was a Senior and had a decent arm. However, what is truly inexplicable is him having Dobbs below Peterman on the depth chart. And I don't buy the redshirt excuse either because even in the Alabama game last year after he had decided he was not going to redshirt Dobbs, he still inexplicably started Peterman over Dobbs. His decision to do so may have cost us a chance at making that game against Alabama a lot more interesting. If we score a touchdown in one of those first 2 possessions rather than having 2 three and outs, the game takes on a different character in my opinion. In all fairness to Butch Jones, Nick Saban had a really bad loss to Louisiana Monroe in his first season at Alabama.

With all of that said, I think Jones (in his third season at Tennessee) is now similarly situated to Nick Saban in his second season at Alabama. If he is going to be on the same level as Nick Saban or Urban Meyer, then expect a 10 win or better season. If he wins 8 or 9 games this year, then in my opinion the jury is still out on whether Butch Jones is going to be merely a good coach that generally wins 8-10 games per year but rarely if ever wins championships or a great coach that takes us back to the elite level of play that we had at this University in the 1990s. Anything less than 8 wins means that there are serious questions about whether Jones will even be a good coach.
 
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#233
#233
JC61 said:
whew....ok, hope this doesn't get too long....but it will

Disclaimer up front it may cover concepts and thoughts sprinkled throughout this thread.

I am not on the fence...I am in full Butch mode right now. Why...LEADERSHIP - he is a leader, and the CULTURE he has instilling in this team....our team....IS paying dividends. First year is a wash to a degree because he had to deal with what he had...some guys bought in and others didn't (I've said before...I don't think our vaulted OLine bought in fully...hence Vandy). Last year that young team fought hard for 4 Qtrs and had a lot of close games that could have turned out different...could have been uglier too. 7-6 aint bad for the "youngest" team, that had to replace the entire front lines on O and D, in FBS!

While the injuries and guys bolting is concerning....a. you have to practice hard and b. if guys aren't going to buy in and won't give their all....well, maybe that's the price of building a team....dare I say dynasty.

Butch has proven he can win...maybe in lesser leagues, but he can win. Now, let's think about a diminutive man...whom we like to despise...called Saban. By record...he was a mediocre coach...given a shot at LSU. Guess what, he was slightly above average (to most of VOL nation thinking) for 3 out of the 5 years there and it won't consecutively. He fails in the NFL....what did Bama see....what special sauce did he have....hhmmm....maybe experience and a recipe....he calls it "process" for success.

Moving on. I think there are 4 categories of coaches....sometimes they fall in between the lines and maybe on the cusp of going up or down:

HOF-great
Very Good
Good
Mediocre-Bad

At this particular point in time I think CBJ is between the Good to Very Good....he may need a little more seasoning to move forward and finally reach the HOF level. Think Beamer and VT...how long did they wait...and dude can/could flat out coach. Do you really want to be the program to let this guy go? I say give him at least 5 years; the attitude and difference in culture alone is enough to see he is trying to right the ship and enough to give him a couple more years. To do otherwise, unless you think we can get an absolute homerun hire....and that is subjective as well, is to invite another 2-4 years of mediocrity.

Butch is the guy....he's demonstrated it in various intagibles; that, while may not result in wins and immediate success, do result in building a PROGRAM....and dare I say, dynasty. He still needs to learn and develop himself....maybe some position coaching changes are in order...but the dude will be successful and WE will look back either happy or very pissed (i.e. he leaves and succeeds elsewhere)....depending on how this shakes out.

I don't apologize for the length....I know the microwave popcorn crowd won't appreciate....but these are my thoughts, as succinctly as possible, given the context.
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He's done just about everything right except put the wins in the win column and ultimately that's ALL that matters. That is what he and every head coach will be judged on. I'm not going to be "full Butch" until he shows us evidence of getting it done on the field. Starting this year, 8-9 wins should be the absolute floor for this program and we HAVE to start seeing some signature wins against teams that have been kicking our ass for far too long! Until I see this, I'm not full anything.
 
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#234
#234
ReaderVol said:
Why is that confusing? Everyone knew last year was year 2 in a massive rebuilding project. We had no idea for sure that we'd get Dormady or the other young QB's and that have committed we were NO WAY ready to compete for titles. So why burn a year or get Dobbs hurt? It's easy to look back now and say "we should have started Dobbs day 1". But at the time it made perfect sense for the program to play Worley.
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yep throw away a season to redshirt dobbs. that is the reason I still have questions about jones. everybody knew who was the better qb. putting a below average qb out there to lose games I have a problem with. no matter how you look at it , makes very little sense to me.
 
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#235
#235
VolunteerTitan3 said:
As far as my approval of CBJ is concerned i am not necessarily focused on a particular win loss record so long as we beat Florida this year. I just want to see a well coached team in position and with the correct number of players on the field. If the recruits keep moving in the way they are the wins will be there.
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Has there been a recurring issue with subtituiions the last two years? I know they occur from time to time but I think we got rid of the staff that made that a game day issue every game. As for me, I believe we beat Florida this year just like I did last year. My approval of Butch does not rely on the Florida game but overall improvement of the team.
 
#236
#236
onevol74 said:
I have a feeling that many on this board are underestimating Florida. They still have one of the best defenses in the SEC. If Missouri can neutralize our offense with average talent then it will be easier for the Gators.
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I'm convinced Florida is a loss until I see otherwise.

That being said, Florida has major issues at OL, QB concerns and limited playmakers on offense. Also, they lost their best defender from last year's team and have a question or 2 in their DL. Their strength is in their secondary and at LB. We had them beat last year until the bad play call/sack fumble to end the 3rd. We SHOULD beat Florida this year....but then again, this is FLORIDA we're talking about so all bets are off until we actually do it IMO.
 
#237
#237
KBVol said:
I'm convinced Florida is a loss until I see otherwise.

That being said, Florida has major issues at OL, QB concerns and limited playmakers on offense. Also, they lost their best defender from last year's team and have a question or 2 in their DL. Their strength is in their secondary and at LB. We had them beat last year until the bad play call/sack fumble to end the 3rd. We SHOULD beat Florida this year....but then again, this is FLORIDA we're talking about so all bets are off until we actually do it IMO.
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New coaching staff, etc.
 
#238
#238
champyvol said:
yep throw away a season to redshirt dobbs. that is the reason I still have questions about jones. everybody knew who was the better qb. putting a below average qb out there to lose games I have a problem with. no matter how you look at it , makes very little sense to me.
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Everybody KNEW Dobbs was better? Really because I don't recall seeing people on this or other sites saying that early in the year.
Revisionist history is. A funny thing.
 
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#239
#239
ReaderVol said:
Everybody KNEW Dobbs was better? Really because I don't recall seeing people on this or other sites saying that early in the year.
Revisionist history is. A funny thing.
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ReaderVol, at SOME point when a coach sees its not working out in a game he's got to roll the dice and try to make something happen. I don't give a damn if Worely was the better practice QB. It was clear that he wasn't getting it done that day against Florida and his stationary style of play was getting him killed.
 
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#240
#240
Brave Volunteer said:
ReaderVol, at SOME point when a coach sees its not working out in a game he's got to roll the dice and try to make something happen. I don't give a damn if Worely was the better practice QB. It was clear that he wasn't getting it done that day against Florida and his stationary style of play was getting him killed.
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We had the lead. Our defense made some dumb mistakes (like young players do at times) and that's the main reason we lost.
 
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#241
#241
onevol74 said:
I have a feeling that many on this board are underestimating Florida. They still have one of the best defenses in the SEC. If Missouri can neutralize our offense with average talent then it will be easier for the Gators.
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Can we just go beat Florida already! We are the better team and this kind of thinking is what causes us to lose almost every year since 93! Yeah, there could be some injuries in this game, could get dirty AH! But for the love of all that is holy just please beat the damn Gators!...
 
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#242
#242
ReaderVol said:
Everybody KNEW Dobbs was better? Really because I don't recall seeing people on this or other sites saying that early in the year.
Revisionist history is. A funny thing.
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At a minimum, most people knew that Dobbs was better than Peterman. So what was Butch's excuse for starting Peterman rather than Dobbs in the Alabama game last year? He had already made the decision and announced publicly that Dobbs was not going to redshirt. If Dobbs starts the game last year against Alabama, I think that becomes a much more interesting and competitive game. With that said, there are a lot of positives that can be taken from Butch's first 2 seasons as well. In addition to his phenomenal recruiting, the 2-0 record against Spurrier, and his game plans against Georgia come to mind. I just think the jury is still out on Jones, and that there is no excuse for us not to succeed this year.
 
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#243
#243
volburns said:
Has there been a recurring issue with subtituiions the last two years? I know they occur from time to time but I think we got rid of the staff that made that a game day issue every game. As for me, I believe we beat Florida this year just like I did last year. My approval of Butch does not rely on the Florida game but overall improvement of the team.
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No! The team is much improved when it comes to substitutions and alignment! That was just my way of saying glad that stuff is gone and i believe the team is much better coached..
 
#244
#244
bhouston79 said:
At a minimum, most people knew that Dobbs was better than Peterman. So what was Butch's excuse for starting Peterman rather than Dobbs in the Alabama game last year? He had already made the decision and announced publicly that Dobbs was not going to redshirt. If Dobbs starts the game last year against Alabama, I think that becomes a much more interesting and competitive game. With that said, there are a lot of positives that can be taken from Butch's first 2 seasons as well. In addition to his phenomenal recruiting, the 2-0 record against Spurrier, and his game plans against Georgia come to mind. I just think the jury is still out on Jones, and that there is no excuse for us not to succeed this year.
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Butch is standing by the whole "Dobbs wasn't ready" mantra. As long as all keeps going well it looks like he will get by with it.
Beating Spurrier twice is good. But we need to beat our rivals to be what we want to be. I would like for us to have a winning record against UGA, UF & UA this year (every year really). One of those wins needs to be Florida for sure, to end the streak.
 
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#245
#245
VKAman said:
You have to be kidding me with this. "We had a secret weapon that Jones knew was the best QB we had, but we wanted to wait to unleash him because Jones wasn't sure he'd be able to recruit another QB for four full years and wanted to keep Dobbs eligible for five."If someone on a rival board said that about their team, we'd mock them mercilessly and everyone here knows it.
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Who were you quoting? And what did that have to do with Reader's post? Dobbs wasn't a known certainty...he hadn't shown it the previous season or in practice. It was obvious that in an ideal world, a redshirt season would have benefitted him. The fact that he got in and delivered is a credit to him and his hard work. Maybe if he starts the season, he gets overwhelmed with the growing pains and immediate expectations...and crushed against Oklahoma. We finish last season and begin this one with a vastly different version? Maybe he's an instant success and we have a vastly different second season? Common ground between those different theories? They're THEORIES! "Facts" not in evidence, ergo non facts. Things sometimes work out even though revisionists haven't figured out how to reset the path that got you there. Butch has enough talent...talent that's here BECAUSE of him, to prove he can or cannot coach that talent. Let's get to the season and quit trying to figure out what happens IF he fails. :hi:
 
#248
#248
bhouston79 said:
At a minimum, most people knew that Dobbs was better than Peterman. So what was Butch's excuse for starting Peterman rather than Dobbs in the Alabama game last year? He had already made the decision and announced publicly that Dobbs was not going to redshirt. If Dobbs starts the game last year against Alabama, I think that becomes a much more interesting and competitive game. With that said, there are a lot of positives that can be taken from Butch's first 2 seasons as well. In addition to his phenomenal recruiting, the 2-0 record against Spurrier, and his game plans against Georgia come to mind. I just think the jury is still out on Jones, and that there is no excuse for us not to succeed this year.
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When was that? I don't remember fans or the media clamoring for Dobbs. Again, revisionist history.
 
#250
#250
ReaderVol said:
When was that? I don't remember fans or the media clamoring for Dobbs. Again, revisionist history.
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There are always a few in a hurry to be right...FWIW there was a thread about Wegzyn and one asking if Hurd could do the job. :wink2:
 
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