Dodd: Butch Jones is Underrated

#54
#54
He's not underrated. Now, if he had beaten Oklahoma, Florida and Arkansas two years ago and then won the games he should have minus the fiasco's of the Appy St game and others and Vol fans still thought of him in the manner we do then yes, he would be underrated.

Since there has been so much talent drafted, where does this lack of succes lay blame?
 
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#55
#55
IknoxvolsI said:
He's not underrated. Now, if he had beaten Oklahoma, Florida and Arkansas two years ago and then won the games he should have minus the fiasco's of the Appy St game and others and Vol fans still thought of him in the manner we do then yes, he would be underrated.

Since there has been so much talent drafted, where does this lack of succes lay blame?
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All good points. Editorial by Dodd is just click bait anyhow.
 
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#56
#56
IknoxvolsI said:
He's not underrated. Now, if he had beaten Oklahoma, Florida and Arkansas two years ago and then won the games he should have minus the fiasco's of the Appy St game and others and Vol fans still thought of him in the manner we do then yes, he would be underrated.
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Lol, ya think?
 
#58
#58
I would agree if the second loss to Vanderbilt hadn't happened.
 
#61
#61
tvolsfan said:
Some fans have significantly lowered expectations, which is concerning.
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By"lowered expectations" you mean recognizing that you have to learn to walk before you can run? Programs in shambles take time to rebuild - at least honestly. Maybe that's a difference, too; would you prefer to be a Baylor or an Ole Miss right now?

Recognizing how things are doesn't mean in the least accepting it as the future. Rebuilding a program more than ever has to do with perception because millenials have no sense of history beyond what happened in the past few years. Rebuilding a program is tougher than it was before recruiting limits, and the new rules are going to make it even tougher. Better prepare to make the best of things because if you fire a coach and lose players and recruits as a result, getting a to full roster even without depth will be a killer.
 
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#65
#65
golfballs said:
Making the case for Butch Jones being underrated at Tennessee

Discuss
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LOL... Talk about answering arguments that aren't being made and ignoring the ones that are...

The "key" to this article was the bit about UT being the 6th best program in the SEC due to home state recruiting. He actually came out and said that UT needs to know and accept its place... IOW's, 2nd tier should be satisfactory.

Quoting the resume that Jones used to get the UT job really doesn't prove much... and especially since he didn't look below the surface of that success to see the weakness of the competition it came against or the results in years when the competition was stiffer.

I don't know of anyone who does not recognize and appreciate the progress Jones has made. That is NO ONE'S argument. What we see and what the author completely ignores (as Jones does as well apparently) is the number of bad losses and missed opportunities... with few real upset wins or seized opportunities to balance. Jones may be a victim of what "could and should have been"... but that's the contract he signed. When the SEC East stands right in front of you... RIPE FOR THE PICKING... YOU TAKE IT.
 
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#66
#66
sjt18 said:
LOL... Talk about answering arguments that aren't being made and ignoring the ones that are...

The "key" to this article was the bit about UT being the 6th best program in the SEC due to home state recruiting. He actually came out and said that UT needs to know and accept its place... IOW's, 2nd tier should be satisfactory.

Quoting the resume that Jones used to get the UT job really doesn't prove much... and especially since he didn't look below the surface of that success to see the weakness of the competition it came against or the results in years when the competition was stiffer.

I don't know of anyone who does not recognize and appreciate the progress Jones has made. That is NO ONE'S argument. What we see and what the author completely ignores (as Jones does as well apparently) is the number of bad losses and missed opportunities... with few real upset wins or seized opportunities to balance. Jones may be a victim of what "could and should have been"... but that's the contract he signed. When the SEC East stands right in front of you... RIPE FOR THE PICKING... YOU TAKE IT.
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to be fair, that happens here.....all the time, and is probably the primary reason every thread turns in to a pissing contest of who can convince who, who's right and wrong.
 
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#69
#69
AM64 said:
By"lowered expectations" you mean recognizing that you have to learn to walk before you can run? Programs in shambles take time to rebuild - at least honestly.
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No. We mean having the SEC East within your grasp two years in a row and blowing it.... then having fans make excuses like the one you just made.

Recognizing how things are doesn't mean in the least accepting it as the future.
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Yet... it has. In year 1, there were excuses for not making a bowl in large measure due to losing to a less talented Vandy team. A loss primarily due to a weak game plan. Jones was badly outcoached by Franklin.

In year 2, more excuses in spite of losing to the worst UF team in 30 or so years. But this time... we began to hear the "wait until next year" proclamations. Jones' system would be fully implemented, the team would be more talented and experienced... then defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory vs UF and UT laid an egg vs Arkansas.

But... we were assured by a virtual chorus of Butch apologists that year 4 was definitely the year. SEC East was in the bag... with restrained hopes of even winning the SEC and being in the NC playoff.

Now... here we sit again... being lectured about rebuilding and why the losses and poor play which really don't have a whole lot to do with rebuilding... are just fine. We shouldn't have expected any more... and really shouldn't in the future either.

. Better prepare to make the best of things because if you fire a coach and lose players and recruits as a result, getting a to full roster even without depth will be a killer.
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Jones has had higher than average attrition over his 4 years. That could stay bad... or might even improve. I've watched this play out over the years at UT and other schools. You don't lose a ton of recruits over a coaching change. You lose some but generally the new coach goes on a mission to retain the recruits he wants to sign. Some recruits even decide to sign with a school BECAUSE the coach was fired. James Stone stated that he wasn't going to sign with UT but liked Dooley over Kiffin.
 
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#70
#70
DiderotsGhost said:
I agree 100%.

Many Vol fans and the national media are evaluating Butch by the standards of our late 1990s success. He's a "failure" because he hasn't won an SEC Championship or gone 10-2 in his four seasons.

Yet, realistically speaking, Butch has had a grand total of TWO seasons where he was competitive talent-wise in the SEC. His record in those two seasons is 18-8. It's not spectacular, but it's also well above-average.

The 2013 and 2014 teams would not have fared well regardless of coach. The 2013 team was devoid of talent in the skilled positions and had no depth on defense. The 2014 team had one of the weakest O-lines in UT history; and also an extreme lack of depth; and all of this was a result of Dooley's incompetence. Not even Nick Saban could've made the '13 and '14 teams competitive in the SEC. Yet the Butch naysayers constantly cite losses from those two years as proof that Butch is terrible.

To evaluate Butch, you have to consider where we were in 2012 and what the blueprint should have been to succeed. In two short years, he restocked the roster and had us competitive talent-wise in the SEC. He's had some of the most difficult schedules in the nation and has held up OK.

The frustrating part is that Butch has made us very good again, but not great. 9-4 is not awful, but we should've never lost to South Carolina and Vandy last season. However, our defense was decimated by injuries, and that obviously impacted us at the end of the season. Nevertheless, coaching and conditioning were at least part of the problem. Butch has attempted to address those issues in the offseason.

I've said this all along: I don't know if Butch will take us to the Promised Land, but he's done enough to earn another couple of seasons. He has a lot of similarties with Dabo Swinney, who also had some early struggles, before tweaking his coaching staff in Year 4 and Year 5. Now Dabo has a national championship.

Butch is a good coach. The only question is whether he's a great coach and that's yet to be answered.
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DG,
Someone should be paying you to write this in an official outlet. Perfectly accurate with a clear understanding of the situation. Unlike the paid media mercenaries hired to churn out profit making interest. :salute:
 
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#71
#71
livefaith said:
DG,
Someone should be paying you to write this in an official outlet. Perfectly accurate with a clear understanding of the situation. Unlike the paid media mercenaries hired to churn out profit making interest. :salute:
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No. It isn't "perfectly accurate".

The complaints against Jones aren't for the things that have been beyond his control. Dider acknowledges that the injuries and lack of depth in year 4 are partially Jones' fault.... and that IS accurate.

But the complaint about Jones in year one wasn't that he didn't compete for the SEC. The complaint was that when a bowl was on the line... he couldn't beat a Vandy team that even then had less talent.

The complaint for year two isn't that he didn't beat OU in Norman or win 10 games. The complaint was he lost to the worst UF team in about 30 years at home... when they were coached by Muschamp.

Sidenote: The fact that he's O'fer against Muschamp does NOTHING to help his case.

The complaint over year 3 wasn't necessarily the losses but how... except for Arkansas and the fact that he allowed UF with no offense to stage a comeback.

The complaint over year 4... well, they're simply valid. But not only that... they are valid AND they are a continuation of a pattern of underperformance you can trace through the first 3 years.
 
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#72
#72
Vol til' I Fall said:
I counter with the following video posted from Colin Cowherd on Chip Kelly coaching the Vols... On one hand he praises UT as a top 10 school, but follows with the fact that we have a gym teacher as a coach.

I LIKE CBJ, but I'd LOVE Chip Kelly to be the coach.

http://www.rockytoptalk.com/2017/6/...ching-carousel-tennessee-hot-seat-butch-jones

Is CBJ underrated, I don't think so. As a recruiter he's been great, but in game coaching and adjustments, I think he gets his fair criticism. My hope is that we take another step forward this coming season and CBJ proves the doubters (including me at times) wrong and he sticks around, but I can't help but imagine what the alternative could be should we not.
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Excellent post!
 
#74
#74
"Jones dropped from 33rd in 2016 to 52nd earlier this month after winning nine games."

2 losses in 4 years to Vandy that's no where near as talented and a loss to a sad South Carolina team last year.

He has done GOOD things for sure, but MUST become a better COACH. He cannot lose or under perform against lesser teams.
 
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