Dodd: Butch Jones is Underrated

#27
#27
Why do people keep talking about UT fans wanting/expecting to win the SEC? IDT that's the standard many UT fans expect at all. IMO, UT fans have lowered expectations significantly. Almost any UT fan would be thrilled to win the SECE and make it to the SECCG. Even taking a L in ATL would be a step forward.

Probably true for the most part. At least given the current situation. That might would change a few years down the road but for now would suffice.
 
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#28
#28
I counter with the following video posted from Colin Cowherd on Chip Kelly coaching the Vols... On one hand he praises UT as a top 10 school, but follows with the fact that we have a gym teacher as a coach.

I LIKE CBJ, but I'd LOVE Chip Kelly to be the coach.

http://www.rockytoptalk.com/2017/6/...ching-carousel-tennessee-hot-seat-butch-jones

Is CBJ underrated, I don't think so. As a recruiter he's been great, but in game coaching and adjustments, I think he gets his fair criticism. My hope is that we take another step forward this coming season and CBJ proves the doubters (including me at times) wrong and he sticks around, but I can't help but imagine what the alternative could be should we not.

You lost all credibility the moment you cited Colin Cowherd as the support for your argument.
 
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#30
#30
Could Jones be underrated and overrated at the same time? In terms of academics, discipline, and community representation, I would consider him very underrated. He's a great program manager. He incessantly promotes positivity. He is a guy you can trust with your son.

On the other hand, his in-game shortcomings are noteworthy. The games that got away in '15 were explained away due to youth, but a better in-game strategist finds a way to win vs OU and UF.

The '16 games vs SC and VU are inexcusable. And before anyone blames Hurd - that might be the biggest indictment of Jones of them all. Jones chose to indulge a moderately talented diva RB instead of benching his butt and playing Kamara from day one. It would've sent a message to the team as well as likely changed our offensive destiny well before aTm.

Give the man credit where he's earned it - but for his sake, I hope Jones can have a really good season this year in terms of wins/losses.
 
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#31
#31
Probably the most unfortunate loss in CBJ's career was the Vandy loss last year. Win what should have been a gimme game and UT goes to the Sugar Bowl. The narrative would have been very different-- even with a Sugar Bowl L, fans would have felt more optimistic about the program. The COL and 5* hearts firestorms wouldn't have flared, hot seat talk wouldn't have erupted and people would be looking forward to seeing what a healthy Tennessee team could do this year. What an ill-timed loss.
 
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#32
#32
Could Jones is underrated and overrated at the same time? In terms of academics, discipline, and community representation, I would consider him very underrated. He's a top-notch program manager. He promotes incessantly positivity. He is a guy you can trust with your son.

On the other hand, his in-game shortcomings are noteworthy. The games that got away in '15 were explained away due to youth, but a better in-game strategist finds a way to win vs OU and UF.

The '16 games vs SC and VU are inexcusable. And before anyone blames Hurd - that might be the biggest indictment of Jones of them all. Jones chose to cater to a moderately talented diva RB instead of benching his butt and playing Kamara from day one. It would've sent a message to the team as well as likely changed our offensive destiny well before aTm.

Give the man credit where he's earned it - but for his sake, I hope Jones can have a really good season this year in terms of wins/losses.

yes. good points, agreed. siap...he's both good and bad, virtually at the same time... and why it's such a debatable topic.
 
#33
#33
Probably true for the most part. At least given the current situation. That might would change a few years down the road but for now would suffice.

Agreed. Bama is better than all SECE teams-- and generally the SECW teams, too-- so most teams lose to them. When that changes, expectations will change, too.
 
#34
#34
Probably the most unfortunate loss in CBJ's career was the Vandy loss last year. Win what should have been a gimme game and UT goes to the Sugar Bowl. The narrative would have been very different-- even with a Sugar Bowl L, fans would have felt more optimistic about the program. The COL and 5* hearts firestorms wouldn't have flared, hot seat talk wouldn't have erupted and people would be looking forward to seeing what a healthy Tennessee team could do this year. What an ill-timed loss.

eh, while i agree on the vandy loss and the net result....we also had FL dead to rights the last 3 years. being 3-1 vs. FL, and 2-2 against GA would look good....5-3 against those two in 4 years would help a lot on perception...and he'd have that East title thingy under his belt too.:thumbsup:
 
#35
#35
Why do people keep talking about UT fans wanting/expecting to win the SEC? IDT that's the standard many UT fans expect at all. IMO, UT fans have lowered expectations significantly. Almost any UT fan would be thrilled to win the SECE and make it to the SECCG. Even taking a L in ATL would be a step forward.

Some fans have significantly lowered expectations, which is concerning.
 
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#36
#36

I generally agree with the article because there is no denying that Butch has done many good things and the program is exponentially better than when he arrived.

However, there also is no denying that last year was a terrible coaching job on many levels, including letting the Hurd situation fester and cost his team games, failing to have competent S&C and QB coaches, and not having the team ready to compete at the start of many games just to name a few.

And that is why Butch is in the "prove it" category.
 
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#37
#37
eh, while i agree on the vandy loss and the net result....we also had FL dead to rights the last 3 years. being 3-1 vs. FL, and 2-2 against GA would look good....5-3 against those two in 4 years would help a lot on perception...and he'd have that East title thingy under his belt too.:thumbsup:

True. UT has spotted UF the SECE for two years. Blown leads in rivalry games and losing to every SECW team has contributed to the negative perception.
 
#38
#38
Some fans have significantly lowered expectations, which is concerning.

Name a team in the East (or West for that matter) that would realistically expect to win the SEC playing Bama twice.

Not saying it shouldn't be the goal - it's just different than 'expecting' it, imo.
 
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#39
#39
Some fans have significantly lowered expectations, which is concerning.

We have to be on the championship ladder before we can climb it. We haven't even been able to hoist ourselves to the bottom rung for a decade, so expectations have lowered. Concerning, yes-- I agree.
 
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#41
#41
Jones deserves credit and also some scrutiny. Last two seasons we have gone 18-8. Which is third best in the SEC behind Bama and FL. Those two have met twice in those two years in the SECCG. However, we would have been in those SECCG if it wasn't for the FL game debacle in 15 and the USC and Vandy loses from last season. Also, missing out on the Sugar Bowl. You could also throw in the OU game of 15 that Jones did not coach well. I bring up the last two years because Jones walked into a mess and I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

So here we are year 5 in the Jones era. 3 bowl wins in a row. Last two season finishing in the Top 25. Recruiting well, etc. However, with all that being said it feels like we are just waiting to see Jones mess it up again on game day to keep us out of the SECCG or New Years 6 bowl game.

Jones is a great program builder. Great recruiter. Great ambassador of the program. But, he's missing the killer instinct that matters the most on game day and that ultimately is what UT fans want! Just win baby!
 
#42
#42
i think most level headed, rational people know that there's more to running a program like this than just the x's and o's and recruiting.

which is why you can praise CBJ for the Sunday - Friday, and be absolutely mystified at how a guy that is so good everywhere else, hasn't put it together on Saturdays in either of the last two years.

frustrating. I want all of what he does off the field. i want more on Saturday.
 
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#44
#44
Butch is neither overrated or underrated. I would argue that he did a good job with this program until last year specifically. In 2016 this team underachieved by any measure; not even sure how that is debatable. If the record alone doesn't convince you of that, how Alvin Kamara was used by the coaching staff during his Tennessee career should.

So that's 3 years to rebuild the program, which he achieved, followed by a disappointing year when they had some real expectations. Not sure how Dodd spins "underrated" out of that. The NFL draft picks he cites (even going back to his Central Michigan days) are impressive, but not ultimately what a college coach is judged on.

The best thing Butch has going for his job security right now is his buyout and the University's ability (or lack thereof) to reasonably afford said buyout. Not exactly the greatest position to be in.

I agree with this to an extent. He did have three years to "rebuild" talent and accomplished that. However, I do recall him saying some time back it takes seven years to rebuild a team. What was unsaid was it takes seven years to recruit and train quality depth. Which Dodd doesn't say in the article, but is extremely true for SEC ball. Injuries decimated the team in a huge way last year. And there just wasn't enough quality depth overall behind the starters to match the injury rate. A few injuries in key positions can wreck a run at the Division title as we saw. Alabama owes its continued success to the amount of quality depth they have behind the starters. A 4 or 5 star lineman with three years under their belt gets injured? Plug in another 4 or 5 star with two years under their belt and continue plugging. Something UT doesn't have (yet) and in reality, something most SEC teams don't except maybe at certain positions.

The biggest thing I can agree with in your post is the Kamara/Hurd situation. The coaches should have seen that writing on the wall long before they pulled him and reversed the roles. AK was just too talented to be playing second fiddle to anyone.
 
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#45
#45
Good article for the most part
Fans are WAY too impatient these days

eh, in general, yeah. we are.

but i don't think it was unrealistic to have the expectation we had for last season, and it's certainly not being impatient to be ultra disappointed with how we finished last season....or the FL game in 15. both sets of events preventing achievement of the actual goals of the season.

when you're right there, and capable of doing it, that's not being impatient.
 
#46
#46
which is why you can praise CBJ for the Sunday - Friday, and be absolutely mystified at how a guy that is so good everywhere else, hasn't put it together on Saturdays in either of the last two years.

Good salesman, bad tactician. Two different skill sets, and it is rare to find someone who is really good at both.

There are people like that everywhere, in all sorts of professions. Especially college football coaches :)

If you pay attention to the little comments that leak out of NFL scouts around combine/draft time, they say all the time that the coaching college players receive, even great NFL prospects at big time schools, isn't all that great. Most of these coaches are salesmen that are good at relating to 17 or 18-year-old kids and selling them a story.
 
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#47
#47
I agree with this to an extent. He did have three years to "rebuild" talent and accomplished that. However, I do recall him saying some time back it takes seven years to rebuild a team. What was unsaid was it takes seven years to recruit and train quality depth. Which Dodd doesn't say in the article, but is extremely true for SEC ball. Injuries decimated the team in a huge way last year. And there just wasn't enough quality depth overall behind the starters to match the injury rate. A few injuries in key positions can wreck a run at the Division title as we saw. Alabama owes its continued success to the amount of quality depth they have behind the starters. A 4 or 5 star lineman with three years under their belt gets injured? Plug in another 4 or 5 star with two years under their belt and continue plugging. Something UT doesn't have (yet) and in reality, something most SEC teams don't except maybe at certain positions.

The biggest thing I can agree with in your post is the Kamara/Hurd situation. The coaches should have seen that writing on the wall long before they pulled him and reversed the roles. AK was just too talented to be playing second fiddle to anyone.

no, that's not what he said. he said it takes 6-7 years to build the quality depth necessary to compete consistently at a championship level, citing programs like OU and Bama as teams that have done that.
 
#48
#48
Good salesman, bad tactician. Two different skill sets, and it is rare to find someone who is really good at both.

There are people like that everywhere, in all sorts of professions. Especially college football coaches :)

If you pay attention to the little comments that leak out of NFL scouts around combine/draft time, they say all the time that the coaching college players receive, even great NFL prospects at big time schools, isn't all that great. Most of these coaches are salesmen that are good at relating to 17 or 18-year-old kids and selling them a story.

oh, i agree. which is why i'm cautiously optimistic regarding the coaching changes, and apparent change in style from CBJ...

we'll see. but i had a boss, owner of the company, that was a salesman at heart. emotional decision maker, that was like a fish chasing bait....

but he was self aware enough to know that's how he was so he made it a point to have people around him that could, and would, hold him in check. he needed people like me, and a couple others that would tell him...uh, no you can't do that, here's why.

i swear, if it'd of been up to him, he'd of spent every dime we made....lol. hoping CBJ is doing the same.:popcorn:
 
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#50
#50
no, that's not what he said. he said it takes 6-7 years to build the quality depth necessary to compete consistently at a championship level, citing programs like OU and Bama as teams that have done that.

Thanks for agreeing with me...
 
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