Do you consider Canada an ally?

[05_never_again]

How do they have a navy base in Africa if they don't have a blue water navy? Who would threaten their shipping if we're not guarding it. Don't forget several other Davies also patrol the seas and piracy hotspots in particular.

You can have individual bases different places without a blue water navy. Just because they built a (tiny) base there and sent some naval assets to it doesn't mean they have a blue water navy. They don't have a navy capable of patrolling the oceans globally; nobody does, except the United States. Other navies are capable of patrolling certain areas, but they are all US allies, and do it as part of the US security umbrella that the US ultimately controls. There is no other power bloc doing their own patrols.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

This may come as a surprise to you, but I have a life outside of this board. I live in the actual world, where I interact with real people. Next time I post, I will tag you so that you get the attention that you're lacking. @PEPPERJAX

Pretty sure we all have lives outside of this board. Have fun with your little boyfriends at the club, playa.

 

[LouderVol]

No it won't. The Chinese don't innovate anything. The high-end R&D, intellectual content, etc. is either in the United States or outside of China. They don't have a military capable of power projection far from their borders. They are overly reliant on imports for their food and energy. Their population is declining.

I think once AI is established a lot of the need for human invention is going to go away, in China at least. if nothing else they will be able to brute force it. just look at the Ukraine war, its not the fancy expensive new stuff that is setting the battlefield. its cheap commercial grade drones, and reliable weapon systems.

I also don't think China wants to project power that far. I don't think they are as interested in the quasi-military empire the US has built. they will be able to control their sphere with their military, and that is enough for them. the B&RI is going to give them the leverage they need without having military bases all over the world.

the declining population helps their food and energy needs. they have also been drastically expanding every energy source they can. food solutions are out there for them, I haven't figured out why that hasn't been more of a priority, but hydroponics isn't going to be outside their realm science devoid of the west.

 

[LouderVol]

How do they have a navy base in Africa if they don't have a blue water navy? Who would threaten their shipping if we're not guarding it. Don't forget several other Davies also patrol the seas and piracy hotspots in particular.

the Houthis have been taking pot shots at them. the various pirates all up and down the african coasts and around the arabian peninsula. Indonesia has some issues too, and I doubt the cartels will remain land bound without something keeping them there.

especially if things go to crap either in a WW3 scenario, or something else that causes the collapse of the US.

 

[LouderVol]

I have mountains of stories of what they do to some of these countries. Mountains. It's been a part of my job the last decade to observe and (resource-poorly) try to combat China in this. In all his wild cuts Trump has abandoned the one area of foreign "aid" we ought to be doing, which is getting countries sophisticated enough in procurement and investment to ditch the empty promises of Belt and Road- because then, they'll turn to us. This is where the right is shortsighted and idiotic.

To their credit, though, the morons on the left will rail and rant against American "imperialism" and how we "enslave" people (or how they themselves are wage slaves or whatever) from their Chinese-made phones and computers while those same Chinese are enslaving entire populations, sometimes literally but also with wage suppression and through debt and bad contracts. But that's all A-OK.

I would be interested to hear those. what I have been able to put together is something like this as a template:

China goes to a host country. Promises to invest/loan X dollars, which will generate Y dollars, via Z projects. Y dollars is supposedly going to be enough to pay back the X dollars over the term of the loan, where China operates the Z project like the US did the panama canal. The Y dollars are made up, and the Chinese rely on the host country's leaders being desperate enough not to see through it, or corrupt enough to be bribed to play along. The X dollars invested go into infrastructure/ports/jobs, Z, that only the Chinese benefit from. like a brand new highway and rail line, that connects to a Chinese owned port, and a chinese controlled airport/mine/or something else. Whatever (Y) dollars are generated are what the Chinese get back directly, while the actual impact on the local economy is way below whats promised, if not completely negligible. often time said Z projects, actually hurt the local economy, by taking away resources or completely separating them, and denying access to certain parts of the host country. The host country, if it was a loan, then actually has less dollars than they started with to pay back X loan. because the host country defaults, China either ends up owning Z project outright, or getting even more favorable terms that ensure the host country can never repay the debt.

how close am I?

 

[NEO]

Trump picks a fight with Canada out of nowhere and of course MAGA immediately becomes convinced Canada is the enemy

They aren’t the enemy. They just don’t bring crap to the table. They don’t have a military. They are safe solely because we basically book end them.

They don’t have a large population and are the size of one of our states.

We should have never moved a single car plant there as it doesn’t do Americans a bit of good.

Country thinks it’s way more important than it is. If they didn’t border us they would be just another small meaningless country most couldn’t find on a globe.

 

[05_never_again]

I think once AI is established a lot of the need for human invention is going to go away, in China at least. if nothing else they will be able to brute force it. just look at the Ukraine war, its not the fancy expensive new stuff that is setting the battlefield. its cheap commercial grade drones, and reliable weapon systems.

I also don't think China wants to project power that far. I don't think they are as interested in the quasi-military empire the US has built. they will be able to control their sphere with their military, and that is enough for them. the B&RI is going to give them the leverage they need without having military bases all over the world.

the declining population helps their food and energy needs. they have also been drastically expanding every energy source they can. food solutions are out there for them, I haven't figured out why that hasn't been more of a priority, but hydroponics isn't going to be outside their realm science devoid of the west.

Whether or not they want to project power that far is irrelevant; the fact is that they can't, which is a big part of why the whole "China is going to take over" narrative is overblown.

 

[LouderVol]

Whether or not they want to project power that far is irrelevant; the fact is that they can't, which is a big part of why the whole "China is going to take over" narrative is overblown.

I don't think their version of taking over requires them to sail the seas, and be America but with 5 yellow stars.

 

[PKT_VOL]

This might be the dumbest thread on VN.

It is amazing to me that Americans truly don't understand the massive, massive geopolitical advantage the US has via geography + Canada. Having a large country with unbelievable natural resources guarded by an ocean on the East, an ocean on the West, a gulf coving half the Southern border, plus the largest unguarded international border in the world to the North gives the US a trump card on the geopolitical chess board. Being able to redirect our resources towards projecting power abroad defending our national interests, investing in our own internal infrastructure/education/etc. instead of constantly being invaded, under the threat of a potential invasions or having to waste resources on literal geographical defense is a geopolitical cheat code.

Additionally, Canada is the second largest country in the world with a ton of natural resources with a low population that share close cultural, military, and intelligence gathering ties with the US. This effectively, de facto doubles the size and natural resources of the US with minimal tradeoffs. Yet, another geopolitical cheat code.

In short, not only is Canada hands down our greatest geopolitical ally, they are arguably the greatest geopolitical ally ANY county has in the world.

 

[JL24]

I could see a scenario where conservative western Canada would want to break away from the liberals in the east.

With the eastern liberals so connected with China, the west could approach the U.S. about helping them secede.

If that were to happen, Canada could become like Korea. A proxy war between the USA and China.

 

[tvolsfan]

I could see a scenario where conservative western Canada would want to break away from the liberals in the east.

With the eastern liberals so connected with China, the west could approach the U.S. about helping them secede.

If that were to happen, Canada could become like Korea. A proxy war between the USA and China.

lol

 

[BeardedVol]

This might be the dumbest thread on VN.

It is amazing to me that Americans truly don't understand the massive, massive geopolitical advantage the US has via geography + Canada. Having a large country with unbelievable natural resources guarded by an ocean on the East, an ocean on the West, a gulf coving half the Southern border, plus the largest unguarded international border in the world to the North gives the US a trump card on the geopolitical chess board. Being able to redirect our resources towards projecting power abroad defending our national interests, investing in our own internal infrastructure/education/etc. instead of constantly being invaded, under the threat of a potential invasions or having to waste resources on literal geographical defense is a geopolitical cheat code.

Additionally, Canada is the second largest country in the world with a ton of natural resources with a low population that share close cultural, military, and intelligence gathering ties with the US. This effectively, de facto doubles the size and natural resources of the US with minimal tradeoffs. Yet, another geopolitical cheat code.

In short, not only is Canada hands down our greatest geopolitical ally, they are arguably the greatest geopolitical ally ANY county has in the world.

But have they ever said "thank you"?

 

[ButchPlz]

I would be interested to hear those. what I have been able to put together is something like this as a template:

China goes to a host country. Promises to invest/loan X dollars, which will generate Y dollars, via Z projects. Y dollars is supposedly going to be enough to pay back the X dollars over the term of the loan, where China operates the Z project like the US did the panama canal. The Y dollars are made up, and the Chinese rely on the host country's leaders being desperate enough not to see through it, or corrupt enough to be bribed to play along. The X dollars invested go into infrastructure/ports/jobs, Z, that only the Chinese benefit from. like a brand new highway and rail line, that connects to a Chinese owned port, and a chinese controlled airport/mine/or something else. Whatever (Y) dollars are generated are what the Chinese get back directly, while the actual impact on the local economy is way below whats promised, if not completely negligible. often time said Z projects, actually hurt the local economy, by taking away resources or completely separating them, and denying access to certain parts of the host country. The host country, if it was a loan, then actually has less dollars than they started with to pay back X loan. because the host country defaults, China either ends up owning Z project outright, or getting even more favorable terms that ensure the host country can never repay the debt.

how close am I?

That's about the size of it. The new, huge port in Chancay in Peru follows this model.

The other thing they'll do is sell desperate national governments infrastructure- i.e., power plants, roads- for billions. Within a year or so, these are usually almost entirely offline (on account of awful support and them being general Chinese crap), forcing the procurement process to begin again (and in low cost models, China always wins the bids). Because the law does not allow companies to buy more expensive products that may last longer (the law doesn't allow considerations for lifecycle), these countries end up blowing tons and tons on Chinese garbage year over year, eventually ending up in substantial debt to Chinese state-owned companies. This is what they do a lot in Africa.

 

[LouderVol]

That's about the size of it. The new, huge port in Chancay in Peru follows this model.

The other thing they'll do is sell desperate national governments infrastructure- i.e., power plants, roads- for billions. Within a year or so, these are usually almost entirely offline (on account of awful support and them being general Chinese crap), forcing the procurement process to begin again (and in low cost models, China always wins the bids). Because the law does not allow companies to buy more expensive products that may last longer (the law doesn't allow considerations for lifecycle), these countries end up blowing tons and tons on Chinese garbage year over year, eventually ending up in substantial debt to Chinese state-owned companies. This is what they do a lot in Africa.

gotcha. similar concept to what they are doing with the debt/loans. giving them something they know will never give an honest/breakeven ROI

 

[volbound1700]

You must have some interesting news feeds. Who's been threatening to kill us all daily?

North Korea, Iran, Russia, obscure Middle East states like Yemen or Afghanistan. Libya with Khaddafi.

 

[volbound1700]

To be frank, I did kind of blow up (even jokingly) about the ally with Russia and China thing.

Trump is an idiot. Most of Canada patriotism is off the fact they aren't the USA and how they held thr US off in 1812.

That being said, I see the USA alot like I see the Tennessee Vols. They are my team. I am not going to root for another team even if I don't like the coach. The antics by Canada, China, and some of the EU is pissing me off, even if Trump is a blow hard.

 

[tbh]

I like to think of Canada as a mischievous badger.

 

[EasternVol]

North Korea, Iran, Russia, obscure Middle East states like Yemen or Afghanistan. Libya with Khaddafi.

You do have some interesting news feeds. Those places don't and haven't threaten(ed) daily to kill us all.

 

[norrislakevol]

You can have individual bases different places without a blue water navy. Just because they built a (tiny) base there and sent some naval assets to it doesn't mean they have a blue water navy. They don't have a navy capable of patrolling the oceans globally; nobody does, except the United States. Other navies are capable of patrolling certain areas, but they are all US allies, and do it as part of the US security umbrella that the US ultimately controls. There is no other power bloc doing their own patrols.

I am pretty sure that England has at least some capability to be or become a blue water navy if they want to. Same thing with Japan, France, and Australia. Nobody touches the U.S. navy though, and won't for a long time.

 

[volbound1700]

I am pretty sure that England has at least some capability to be or become a blue water navy if they want to. Same thing with Japan, France, and Australia. Nobody touches the U.S. navy though, and won't for a long time.

France is a blue water navy, UK was one but they have downgraded their navy significantly over the last 10 years.



UK literally has more admirals right now than ships.

China, Russia, and India all have borderline blue water navies. USA Navy (from conventional stand point) is untouchable. Now, air power can sometimes blunt or negate naval power if used effectively.

I am not sure about England's capability as navies require significant financial investments and I am not sure UK's economy could support it. Part of the reason the UK navy started shrinking after 1918 and plummeted in size after WW2 was because UK could no longer afford its navy. Technology didn't help either as UK could not invest in large fleets of new ships to match the same fleet size it had in 1918.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I would be interested to hear those. what I have been able to put together is something like this as a template:

China goes to a host country. Promises to invest/loan X dollars, which will generate Y dollars, via Z projects. Y dollars is supposedly going to be enough to pay back the X dollars over the term of the loan, where China operates the Z project like the US did the panama canal. The Y dollars are made up, and the Chinese rely on the host country's leaders being desperate enough not to see through it, or corrupt enough to be bribed to play along. The X dollars invested go into infrastructure/ports/jobs, Z, that only the Chinese benefit from. like a brand new highway and rail line, that connects to a Chinese owned port, and a chinese controlled airport/mine/or something else. Whatever (Y) dollars are generated are what the Chinese get back directly, while the actual impact on the local economy is way below whats promised, if not completely negligible. often time said Z projects, actually hurt the local economy, by taking away resources or completely separating them, and denying access to certain parts of the host country. The host country, if it was a loan, then actually has less dollars than they started with to pay back X loan. because the host country defaults, China either ends up owning Z project outright, or getting even more favorable terms that ensure the host country can never repay the debt.

how close am I?

They've actually been known to take the defaulted projects and convert them into Chinese military bases in the target country.