Dillon Bates' Performance

#51
#51
HuntlandVolinColo said:
He got some good playing time early in FR season and then got hurt. Hasn't been the same since.
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This is exactly what I was thinking. When you can get in the field at all on O or D in the SEC as a true FR, then your future is usually very bright. Then comes an injury and he's relegated to basically scrub duty for the next 3 seasons.

Maybe it's mental shortcoming.
Maybe it's bad coaching.
Maybe it's incorrect ratings.

Heck, we cannot be sure. But the injury and yr of recover look like the tippimg pt in the young man's career to me.
 
#52
#52
fade route said:
You said certain players only blossom under good coaching - If Bates needs “blossoming” to crack the rotation then he’s not talented enough.

Sorry to have to dumb it down for you.
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Fade, you're so cute with your antics sometimes. Are you telling me you really don't understand the benefits of good coaching? Apparently I give you more credit for intelligence than you give me. Good coaching can overcome a lot of things. Schemes just don't come as natural for some. Doesn't mean a good coach can't teach him schemes and make use of his physical talents.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings, Boo Boo.
 
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#53
#53
jonnon111 said:
Touche". I agree that it is unlikely all missed on these kids and our coaches were a clown car.

However, they have missed on a few, would you agree?

Consider this: maybe that's why we won their recruiting battle. Maybe other coaches could see what the last staff couldn't. We seemed to get a lot of our biggest recruits were kids that missed their senior year (Hurd, Mckenzie).

Basically, it's easy to think he last coaching staff was to blame for lack of player development. I agree, they are at fault. But maybe we didn't have the studs we thought we were getting. It's also hard to believe the recruiting services get everyone right too.
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The services are not perfect. They can predict a kid's athletic ability. What they can't predict is their heart. They also can't predict injuries as in the case of Bates. He was showing some progress his freshman year until he was injured. He's never been the same since.

KMac was a 3 year starter and a solid player. He never quite lived up to his hype, but I wouldn't call him a bust.

Here's the thing I found most alarming. How many players did we see that looked like they were going to be studs right off the bat who got progressively worse the longer they were in the program? As far as I'm concerned the slate is clean with everyone on the team. If some of these guys continue to struggle, even under a new staff, then maybe they fall in the bust category.
 
#54
#54
I'm honestly surprised more don't understand that there are two aspects of football. On the one hand, you have the physical game. That's where you see pure athleticism shine. I honestly believe Bates has the physical tools. Where he is lacking imo is the mental game. Understanding concepts and schemes. For some, it comes natural. Jumper had the mental game. Very important for a MLB since they're making on the field calls. Did not(does not) come natural to Bates. This is where coaches failed him. Is someone with dyslexia stupid? No. Bates needed a credible coach, something he wasn't provided. Doesn't mean he's not talented enough for the SEC.
 
#55
#55
Since people are mentioning KMac, I really wish Butch had played him on the OL like the Chiefs plan on doing.
 
#56
#56
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The services are not perfect. They can predict a kid's athletic ability. What they can't predict is their heart. They also can't predict injuries as in the case of Bates. He was showing some progress his freshman year until he was injured. He's never been the same since.

KMac was a 3 year starter and a solid player. He never quite lived up to his hype, but I wouldn't call him a bust.

Here's the thing I found most alarming. How many players did we see that looked like they were going to be studs right off the bat who got progressively worse the longer they were in the program? As far as I'm concerned the slate is clean with everyone on the team. If some of these guys continue to struggle, even under a new staff, then maybe they fall in the bust category.
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Kmac wasn't solid, he was a rag doll for opposing offenses like GT.
 
#57
#57
Weezer said:
Fade, you're so cute with your antics sometimes. Are you telling me you really don't understand the benefits of good coaching? Apparently I give you more credit for intelligence than you give me. Good coaching can overcome a lot of things. Schemes just don't come as natural for some. Doesn't mean a good coach can't teach him schemes and make use of his physical talents.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings, Boo Boo.
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Weez, all LBs got the same coaching. They were all on a level playing field in terms of earning playing time. If Bates hasn’t seen the field, then why is bad coaching to blame? Why didn’t this bad coaching affect the ones that were actually on the field while Bates was sitting on his helmet? Your argument doesn’t hold up against 3rd grader logic.
 
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#58
#58
jonnon111 said:
He was over rated. So was Dontavious Blair, Kongbo, and Khalil McKenzie.

In fairness, we had some damn good linebacker play when they had a line in front :AJ, Kirkland, Bitulu is coming around, thank coaching for colten Jumper being servicable.
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If Jumper had half the athleticism that some of the other linebackers had I could have seen him be a 2nd day draft guy easily. Guy had great ball skills and could tackle but running sideline to sideline he looked like he was in quick sand.
 
#60
#60
davethevol said:
Probably lousy coaching and a pathetic weight training program failed him.
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What else do you need to know? Next thread. (Remember, this is the same staff that had Evan Berry for four years and could not find a place for him to play!!!)
 
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#61
#61
It's sad that anonymous posters get on here and cite what is "wrong" with Bates--citing rumor, innuendo and other unsubstantiated "facts". I appreciate his coming to Tennessee and contributing in whatever way he can--on and off the field. 99% of the posters on here could not do anywhere near what he and the others do.
 
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#62
#62
BigOrangeTrain said:
ReflectingBruisedBuzzard-size_restricted.gif
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You think anybody ever told him he needs mortar to make it work.:)
 
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#64
#64
Giveem6 said:
If Jumper had half the athleticism that some of the other linebackers had I could have seen him be a 2nd day draft guy easily. Guy had great ball skills and could tackle but running sideline to sideline he looked like he was in quick sand.
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good thing you're not a scout for the saints. It sickens me to hear people say things like that.. sideline to sideline he looked like he was running in quicksand.. his proday numbers show that's bogus. He is a 4.6 guy as a comparison he put up almost identical numbers to John Kelly. Though he is 4 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier. *Kelley also did combine so I put his best numbers from the 2

Jumper Kelly
40 4.64 4.64
broad 9'9" 10'*
shuttle 4.21 4.22
3cone 6.89 7.13
20 2.69 2.69
10 1.62 1.58
vert 34 35*

given those numbers especially taking into account difference in size and weight....It can be easily inferred that Jumper is more athletic then John Kelly. Are you saying Kelly lacks lateral quickness and is flat out slow? Because all testing shows that Jumper has more lateral (3 cone) quickness, similar burst (broad/vert) and change of direction (shuttle).

People saw Jumper as slow because they wanted to. Someone said he was so he was even though all he did was produce respectable numbers. Was he all SEC or an all time great nope but he was a serviceable SEC starter who beat out a lot of guys for snaps.
 
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#65
#65
TN_Transplant said:
Keep in mind he was injured early and never seemed to be the same afterwards. It happens, and I hate it for the kid.
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Since a players medical records are private, it's hard to know if that is the cause. The part I hate is we hope a little harder for a legacy player, hoping watching them play brings back memories of a Dad, Brother, Uncle, ect. And when they don't do well, we are quick to blame the staff and coaches. Sometimes it is deserved, but maybe not always.

But with one season to go, it is hard to believe Dillon will suddenly live up to his 4 star billing. But if he has it in him, I hope he reaches down deep and lights it up. Just as I hope that for all of them.
 
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#66
#66
TNnative said:
Since a players medical records are private, it's hard to know if that is the cause. The part I hate is we hope a little harder for a legacy player, hoping watching them play brings back memories of a Dad, Brother, Uncle, ect. And when they don't do well, we are quick to blame the staff and coaches. Sometimes it is deserved, but maybe not always.

But with one season to go, it is hard to believe Dillon will suddenly live up to his 4 star billing. But if he has it in him, I hope he reaches down deep and lights it up. Just as I hope that for all of them.
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Well said. Lets hope for the best and see how it all plays out. Who knows maybe this is the year everything falls in place with injuries and such for the kid.
 
#67
#67
livefaith said:
This is exactly what I was thinking. When you can get in the field at all on O or D in the SEC as a true FR, then your future is usually very bright. Then comes an injury and he's relegated to basically scrub duty for the next 3 seasons.

Maybe it's mental shortcoming.
Maybe it's bad coaching.
Maybe it's incorrect ratings.

Heck, we cannot be sure. But the injury and yr of recover look like the tippimg pt in the young man's career to me.
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Dillon does not have a problem grasping the defense. He has already graduated and he is a very bright kid.
He does not have a speed problem, He was timed consistently in the 4.5"s in all the combines and had a 39 inch vertical jump.He had 4 star ability as quantified by the Rivals of the world.

His dad ran a 4.8, but played much faster. I think the problem is the emphasis placed on measurables by the recruiting services don't tell the whole story. The ability to react and read make up for being a step slow. I have watched Dillon and he does not react and see things the way his Dad did.
 
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#69
#69
pimo1 said:
good thing you're not a scout for the saints. It sickens me to hear people say things like that.. sideline to sideline he looked like he was running in quicksand.. his proday numbers show that's bogus. He is a 4.6 guy as a comparison he put up almost identical numbers to John Kelly. Though he is 4 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier. *Kelley also did combine so I put his best numbers from the 2

Jumper Kelly
40 4.64 4.64
broad 9'9" 10'*
shuttle 4.21 4.22
3cone 6.89 7.13
20 2.69 2.69
10 1.62 1.58
vert 34 35*

given those numbers especially taking into account difference in size and weight....It can be easily inferred that Jumper is more athletic then John Kelly. Are you saying Kelly lacks lateral quickness and is flat out slow? Because all testing shows that Jumper has more lateral (3 cone) quickness, similar burst (broad/vert) and change of direction (shuttle).

People saw Jumper as slow because they wanted to. Someone said he was so he was even though all he did was produce respectable numbers. Was he all SEC or an all time great nope but he was a serviceable SEC starter who beat out a lot of guys for snaps.
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Jumpers biggest problem was he didn't "fit" correctly and false stepped a lot. You can do that as a MLB.
 
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#70
#70
pimo1 said:
good thing you're not a scout for the saints. It sickens me to hear people say things like that.. sideline to sideline he looked like he was running in quicksand.. his proday numbers show that's bogus. He is a 4.6 guy as a comparison he put up almost identical numbers to John Kelly. Though he is 4 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier. *Kelley also did combine so I put his best numbers from the 2

Jumper Kelly
40 4.64 4.64
broad 9'9" 10'*
shuttle 4.21 4.22
3cone 6.89 7.13
20 2.69 2.69
10 1.62 1.58
vert 34 35*

given those numbers especially taking into account difference in size and weight....It can be easily inferred that Jumper is more athletic then John Kelly. Are you saying Kelly lacks lateral quickness and is flat out slow? Because all testing shows that Jumper has more lateral (3 cone) quickness, similar burst (broad/vert) and change of direction (shuttle).

People saw Jumper as slow because they wanted to. Someone said he was so he was even though all he did was produce respectable numbers. Was he all SEC or an all time great nope but he was a serviceable SEC starter who beat out a lot of guys for snaps.
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First stepped missed often and game day speed is a lot different than drills. Game film tells alot more on measurables than just statistics based on combine results. That being said I had no idea he did that well at his pro day. Props for him, I didn't see it on the field much last year.
 
#71
#71
fade route said:
Weez, all LBs got the same coaching. They were all on a level playing field in terms of earning playing time. If Bates hasn’t seen the field, then why is bad coaching to blame? Why didn’t this bad coaching affect the ones that were actually on the field while Bates was sitting on his helmet? Your argument doesn’t hold up against 3rd grader logic.
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Okay, I'll try to explain my point as easy as possible. Do you accept that when it comes to players, you have physical talent and mental ability/natural instinct? The very best players combine the two. Football is more than overcoming the other team physically, yes? It's also about out-scheming them. Can we agree on that?

Dillon Bates has physical talent. Where he is lacking is between the ears. A good coach can overcome that and make use of physical abilities. The reason other players played over him, players like Jumper, is that they had a more natural understanding of schemes, a better understanding of the mental aspects of the game. The former coaching staff was either too lazy or too incompetent to actually teach. They relied on the players who naturally understood what to do.

So to be clear to my point, Bates is physically talented enough to play in the SEC. If the previous coaching staff had been capable of coaching themselves out of a paper bag, then they could have helped the young man on the mental part of the game. Unfortunately for Bates, Butch and company were horrible at their jobs.
 
#72
#72
fade route said:
Kirkland has been injured a lot too, but we all know he’s talented because when healthy, he’s been on the field and performed. Bates? Not so much. It’s not personal, but when Jumper gets significantly more PT than a 4* recruit, then the 4*s probably weren’t warranted to begin with imo.
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Honestly its too early to tell still. Bates came in injured. Second year was a new S&C and another injury. 3rd year yet another S&C plus yet another injury. I am not saying that most of the team the past 4 years in the LP spot didn't get injured he just seems to be prone to injury yearly. Funny how folks keep bringing up Jumper. Jumper was not some joke of a player. Jumper would have thrived in a real SEC head hunting D. Instead he was stuck with a DL that was forced to play reactive. Probably part of the reason our LB's were so injury prone.
 
#73
#73
Weezer said:
Okay, I'll try to explain my point as easy as possible. Do you accept that when it comes to players, you have physical talent and mental ability/natural instinct? The very best players combine the two. Football is more than overcoming the other team physically, yes? It's also about out-scheming them. Can we agree on that?

Dillon Bates has physical talent. Where he is lacking is between the ears. A good coach can overcome that and make use of physical abilities. The reason other players played over him, players like Jumper, is that they had a more natural understanding of schemes, a better understanding of the mental aspects of the game. The former coaching staff was either too lazy or too incompetent to actually teach. They relied on the players who naturally understood what to do.

So to be clear to my point, Bates is physically talented enough to play in the SEC. If the previous coaching staff had been capable of coaching themselves out of a paper bag, then they could have helped the young man on the mental part of the game. Unfortunately for Bates, Butch and company were horrible at their jobs.
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You speak as though you watch every practice from the sidelines. How do you know this about Bates’ ability to grasp the mental side of the game? If you can show evidence that this is the case I will modify my stance and give you credit for adding context.
 
#75
#75
I find it interesting those that blame the coaching as to these players being under-developed. I say that given their father (in this case) was a legend at UT and, to some degree, in the NFL. Why would Bill Bates put up with this?
 
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