Cowherd....

#201
#201
#203
#203
butchna said:
And the current pumpers and negas completely switch positions...would actually be kinda fun. :w00t:
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Not fun for those who want to win football games - but could be interesting for the ruckus it would cause especially when some realized the mess they had made due to their lack of patience.
 
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#204
#204
LA Vol said:
When considering how long to stay the course with a coach, you really have to evaluate performance to goals and conference wins. If the goal is to win championships, that starts with winning the SECE... which requires winning SEC games. If Team 121 finishes 8-4 and 4-4 in the SEC, then CBJ will have an 18-22 SEC record and (most likely) 0 championships. Finishing 9-3 and 5-3 or 10-2 and 6-2 would create a lot more confidence and goodwill going into Year 6.
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Yep, this particular topic is interesting considering the talk of how "demanding" UT fans are by comparison.

Ron Zook in 3 years at UF went 16-8 (66%)
Muschamp in 4 years went 17-15 (53%)
Richt was 23-9 his last 4 seasons (72%)
Miles was 20-12 his last 4 seasons (63%)
Majors was 19-7-1 in his last 4 seasons (which includes the split season with Fulmer (70%)
Fulmer was 17-15 his last 4 seasons (53%)

Miles is the only one of that group that didn't win his division or the conference during his last 4 years.

If you remove Jones worst season (13') and he finishes 5-3 this year he is 17-15 over his last 4 seasons. (53%)
 
#207
#207
Cowturd.

Loud mouth that gets paid bank to spew and crap on everything without accountability.

We have lots of folks on this site that would love that gig.

me included
 
#208
#208
BeecherVol said:
Yep, this particular topic is interesting considering the talk of how "demanding" UT fans are by comparison.

Ron Zook in 3 years at UF went 16-8 (66%)
Muschamp in 4 years went 17-15 (53%)
Richt was 23-9 his last 4 seasons (72%)
Miles was 20-12 his last 4 seasons (63%)
Majors was 19-7-1 in his last 4 seasons (which includes the split season with Fulmer (70%)
Fulmer was 17-15 his last 4 seasons (53%)

Miles is the only one of that group that didn't win his division or the conference during his last 4 years.

If you remove Jones worst season (13') and he finishes 5-3 this year he is 17-15 over his last 4 seasons. (53%)
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Apples to oranges.

Most if not all of these walked into situations very different than Jones. Richt, Miles, Majors and Fulmer were at their schools long enough that any decline was clearly on them. Majors was allowed to build and Fulmer took over the well stocked, well built program.

The question is given the situation that Jones walked into at the START (not at the end) what is the reasonable time frame for him to build the program back to the same consistency levels folks expect?

Fulmer was allowed 5.5 - 6 years and he started with a loaded team. Majors was given a lot longer.

Why should Jones not be afforded at least a similar time frame (even though quite honestly a rational person would understand it would take longer)?
 
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#210
#210
BeecherVol said:
Yep, this particular topic is interesting considering the talk of how "demanding" UT fans are by comparison.

...[data]...

Miles is the only one of that group that didn't win his division or the conference during his last 4 years.

If you remove Jones worst season (13') and he finishes 5-3 this year he is 17-15 over his last 4 seasons. (53%)
Click to expand...

That's an interesting thought experiment, Beecher. I extended it to include all present SEC coaches, and the most recent previous coach (like Richt and Miles) if the current only has a year in the saddle.

Used 4 years as the standard yard stick. Those head coaches with less time, I used whatever they had...but only SEC time, nothing from other conferences.

Once I had all that, I inserted all the possible Butch Jones results through 2017, to see where he would chart out depending on how we do with Team 121.

They're in order from highest win % to lowest:
  • Nick Saban -- 29-3 (91%), 1 national title, 3 SEC titles
  • Jim McElwain -- 13-3 (81%), no titles
  • Mark Richt -- 23-9 (72%), no titles (used last four years in SEC)
  • Les Miles -- 20-12 (62%), no titles (used last four full years)
  • 2017 8-0 Butch Jones -- 20-12 (62%), ??? title ???
    [*]2017 7-1 Butch Jones -- 19-13 (59%), ??? title ???
    [*]2017 6-2 Butch Jones -- 18-14 (56%), ??? title ???
  • Gus Malzahn -- 18-14 (56%), 1 SEC title
  • Gary Pinkel -- 17-15 (53%), no titles
  • 2017 5-3 Butch Jones -- 17-15 (53%), unlikely any titles
  • Hugh Freeze -- 17-15 (53%), no titles
  • Will Muschamp -- 17-15 (53%), no titles (3 yrs at FL, 1 at USCe)
  • Dan Mullen -- 16-16 (50%), no titles
  • 2017 4-4 Butch Jones -- 16-16 (50%), no titles
  • Kirby Smart -- 4-4 (50%), no titles
  • Kevin Sumlin -- 15-17 (47%), no titles
  • 2017 3-5 Butch Jones -- 15-17 (47%), no titles
    [*]2017 2-6 Butch Jones -- 14-18 (44%), no titles
    [*]2017 1-7 Butch Jones -- 13-19 (41%), no titles
    [*]2017 0-8 Butch Jones -- 12-20 (38%), no titles
  • Bret Bielema -- 10-22 (31%), no titles
  • Barry Odom -- 2-6 (25%), no titles
  • Mark Stoops -- 8-24 (25%), no titles
  • Derek Mason -- 5-19 (21%), no titles
So if we win 8, 7, or 6 SEC games this season, Butch will establish himself between Les Miles and Gus Malzahn.

If we win 5, he'll be in the same company as Gary Pinkel, Hugh Freeze, and Will Muschamp.

Win 4, and he's with Dan Mullen and Kirby Smart.

Three or fewer, and he's between Kevin Sumlin and Bret Bielema.

So, does that say much about how demanding the UT leadership, boosters, and fan base are compared to others? Not sure, but it is an interesting way of looking at the stats. Thanks for suggesting it!
 
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#212
#212
VolunteerHillbilly said:
Ahh. The usual Butch Jones gets infinity years because Dooley sucked line. Never gets old does it?
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Nobody said anything about infinity. That ain't the only thing that never gets old.


If Butch had replaced Spurrier, Meyer or Saban, arguably 3 of the best coaches to ever coach the game, that had recently won a National championship, and I had confidence that our AD wouldn't fug it all up, I might just be harder on Butch than you are.
 
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#213
#213
Behr said:
I knew who it was, just curious how you would respond.

:)
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I may not like the guy (as a coach) but I want him to succeed. I don't care who the coach (obviously to a degree, i.e. Joe Pa, Briles) is as long as the results are there
 
#214
#214
Yankee_Vol said:
I may not like the guy (as a coach) but I want him to succeed. I don't care who the coach (obviously to a degree, i.e. Joe Pa, Briles) is as long as the results are there
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Was expecting you to reply with "Lyle".

You ruined it Yank. I feel cheated.
 
#215
#215
volfan102455 said:
Apples to oranges.

Most if not all of these walked into situations very different than Jones. Richt, Miles, Majors and Fulmer were at their schools long enough that any decline was clearly on them. Majors was allowed to build and Fulmer took over the well stocked, well built program.

The question is given the situation that Jones walked into at the START (not at the end) what is the reasonable time frame for him to build the program back to the same consistency levels folks expect?

Fulmer was allowed 5.5 - 6 years and he started with a loaded team. Majors was given a lot longer.

Why should Jones not be afforded at least a similar time frame (even though quite honestly a rational person would understand it would take longer)?
Click to expand...

Fulmer finished 26-6 through his first 4 (full seasons) prior to winning the division and conference in his 5th season. Its not like he was wallowing around 4 wins trying to find his way. He went 7-1 three of those 4 years. So saying he was afforded 5 seasons to get to Atl and win it is a little misleading and disingenuous by comparison.

Your last question is kind of the point. It appears he has us "back" according to some.
4-4 this year will be applauded by many. 5-3 will be considered a monumental achievement. So I guess it depends on who you ask.


And honestly if Tennessee goes 8-4 or better in 2017 and

- Doesn't lose to one of those teams Tennessee really should never lose to
- Is competitive in every game (aka like they were in 2015)

Then every fan does have something to complain about in 2018 if Tennessee does not knock it out of the park in 2018.
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What would you consider "knocking it out of the park"?

And if he goes 7-5, or loses to one of those teams, or gets blown out a couple of times this year, do you adjust 18' for that?
 
#216
#216
Okay, I give up. I'm gonna give errrrybody what they want. Gonna change Errrrythang.

I DEMAND more from you Butch. NOW!!

There.
 
#217
#217
VFL-82-JP said:
That's an interesting thought experiment, Beecher. I extended it to include all present SEC coaches, and the most recent previous coach (like Richt and Miles) if the current only has a year in the saddle.

Used 4 years as the standard yard stick. Those head coaches with less time, I used whatever they had...but only SEC time, nothing from other conferences.

Once I had all that, I inserted all the possible Butch Jones results through 2017, to see where he would chart out depending on how we do with Team 121.

They're in order from highest win % to lowest:
  • Nick Saban -- 29-3 (91%), 1 national title, 3 SEC titles
  • Jim McElwain -- 13-3 (81%), no titles
  • Mark Richt -- 23-9 (72%), no titles (used last four years in SEC)
  • Les Miles -- 20-12 (62%), no titles (used last four full years)
  • 2017 8-0 Butch Jones -- 20-12 (62%), ??? title ???
    [*]2017 7-1 Butch Jones -- 19-13 (59%), ??? title ???
    [*]2017 6-2 Butch Jones -- 18-14 (56%), ??? title ???
  • Gus Malzahn -- 18-14 (56%), 1 SEC title
  • Gary Pinkel -- 17-15 (53%), no titles
  • 2017 5-3 Butch Jones -- 17-15 (53%), unlikely any titles
  • Hugh Freeze -- 17-15 (53%), no titles
  • Will Muschamp -- 17-15 (53%), no titles (3 yrs at FL, 1 at USCe)
  • Dan Mullen -- 16-16 (50%), no titles
  • 2017 4-4 Butch Jones -- 16-16 (50%), no titles
  • Kirby Smart -- 4-4 (50%), no titles
  • Kevin Sumlin -- 15-17 (47%), no titles
  • 2017 3-5 Butch Jones -- 15-17 (47%), no titles
    [*]2017 2-6 Butch Jones -- 14-18 (44%), no titles
    [*]2017 1-7 Butch Jones -- 13-19 (41%), no titles
    [*]2017 0-8 Butch Jones -- 12-20 (38%), no titles
  • Bret Bielema -- 10-22 (31%), no titles
  • Barry Odom -- 2-6 (25%), no titles
  • Mark Stoops -- 8-24 (25%), no titles
  • Derek Mason -- 5-19 (21%), no titles
So if we win 8, 7, or 6 SEC games this season, Butch will establish himself between Les Miles and Gus Malzahn.

If we win 5, he'll be in the same company as Gary Pinkel, Hugh Freeze, and Will Muschamp.

Win 4, and he's with Dan Mullen and Kirby Smart.

Three or fewer, and he's between Kevin Sumlin and Bret Bielema.

So, does that say much about how demanding the UT leadership, boosters, and fan base are compared to others? Not sure, but it is an interesting way of looking at the stats. Thanks for suggesting it!
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It points out that several other schools (some more than once) are willing to let go of coaches that have hardware. And of those I listed the only one that didn't win his division in the 4 years prior to being fired was Miles. And he averaged 9.25 and 5 his last 4 seasons. Even if you over look him winning the conference twice and a NC game with another appearance. Many think Fulmer/UT was an abnormal.
 
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#219
#219
Behr said:
Nobody said anything about infinity. That ain't the only thing that never gets old.


If Butch had replaced Spurrier, Meyer or Saban, arguably 3 of the best coaches to ever coach the game, that had recently won a National championship, and I had confidence that our AD wouldn't fug it all up, I might just be harder on Butch than you are.
Click to expand...

The coach that replaces Saban or Meyer is doomed from the start!
 
#221
#221
BeecherVol said:
It points out that several other schools (some more than once) are willing to let go of coaches that have hardware. And of those I listed the only one that didn't win his division in the 4 years prior to being fired was Miles. And he averaged 9.25 and 5 his last 4 seasons. Even if you over look him winning the conference twice and a NC game with another appearance. Many think Fulmer/UT was an abnormal.
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Plenty of current and former SEC coaches not being let go who don't have any hardware. Sumlin comes to mind. Bielema. Mullen. Freeze would count, too, because we know he wasn't let go because of lack of hardware.

Point is, Tennessee is probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to "tolerance of coaches who haven't won a title yet." In fact, we probably look a lot like most of the SEC, discounting Bama at the top end, and the historical padding teams (Ole Miss, Miss St, Kentucky, Vandy) at the bottom end.

Still not sure anything is being proven here. Not seeing it, anyway.
 
#223
#223
VFL-82-JP said:
Plenty of current and former SEC coaches not being let go who don't have any hardware. Sumlin comes to mind. Bielema. Mullen. Freeze would count, too, because we know he wasn't let go because of lack of hardware.



Still not sure anything is being proven here. Not seeing it, anyway.
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Some would trade Butch for any of the above.
 
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#224
#224
VFL-82-JP said:
Plenty of current and former SEC coaches not being let go who don't have any hardware. Sumlin comes to mind. Bielema. Mullen. Freeze would count, too, because we know he wasn't let go because of lack of hardware.

Point is, Tennessee is probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to "tolerance of coaches who haven't won a title yet." In fact, we probably look a lot like most of the SEC, discounting Bama at the top end, and the historical padding teams (Ole Miss, Miss St, Kentucky, Vandy) at the bottom end.

Still not sure anything is being proven here. Not seeing it, anyway.
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I agree with the bold.

I stuck with the names and schools I did for a reason. James Franklin was football deity at Peabody with 11-13 SEC record. Not all SEC schools are created equal. Which you alluded to. I would throw in Arky and SC (to a lesser degree) in that group as well.

The original point (which was LAvol's) was the importance of the SEC record. The comparison was what got several coaches fired at similar schools (and UT) over their last 4 seasons. Some of which had won divisions during that time frame and others that had bigger winnings earlier in their career.
 
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