Chris Kyle: American hero or

#526
#526
#VFL__ said:
PLA invades America after Canadian terrorists blow up a building in china. Do you sit on your hands or do you fight? Are you a terrorist or are you in a ****ty situation?
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Did we have a murderous dictator in power, does the PLA offer to rebuild our infrastructure and restore elected government?

Need a few more details before I can answer that question.
 
#527
#527
#VFL__ said:
PLA invades America after Canadian terrorists blow up a building in china. Do you sit on your hands or do you fight? Are you a terrorist or are you in a ****ty situation?
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If you pick up a RPG and aim at a convoy, then suddenly get shot....do you blame the guy looking through the scope?

War is a crappy situation however you want to slice it.
 
#528
#528
hog88 said:
I joined the Army because the Marines wouldn't guarantee me the opportunity to fall out of airplanes plus they couldn't ship me out before the next semester started. Had to be gone before mom found out I dropped out of school.
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You willingly jumped out of fully functional airplanes?
 
#529
#529
hog88 said:
It wasn't his job to concern himself with that! Holy shizz! He was an enlisted man following orders, to lump him in with Patton shows complete ignorance on your part.

BTW I disagree with you, give a guy like Patton the tools and latitude and he'd have taken and pacified Iraq within 3-6 months.
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It is the job of a modern soldier (be it Army, Marines, SEAL, etc) to concern himself with that. Have you not read up on the ROE? You're not thinking about the US mission in Iraq/Afghanistan clearly if you think his job is to just start wasting people indiscriminately. This isn't a Duke Nukem game. He could waste 1 innocent and create 10 militants in one fell swoop.

And I have the utmost respect for Patton. He's great in a conventional war where he was given open latitude but he could barely operate in a conventional war without significant problems. He'd have been a spectacular success and then a spectacular failure. General Mattis, a guy that is a total bulldog on the battlefield (just look up some of his other quotes) said this:

Whenever you show anger or disgust toward civilians, it's a victory for al-Qaeda and other insurgents
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Iraq required restraint, patience and a respect for the people the US was trying to work with. Mattis would unleash hellfire and brimstone on terrorists and insurgents but he didn't lose sight of the primary objective and that is bringing the Iraqi people in line with the US mission in Iraq. But General Mattis probably had no idea what he was talking about, right?
 
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#530
#530
SpaceCoastVol said:
You willingly jumped out of fully functional airplanes?
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Yep, loved and miss it.

Was going to take my daughter for he 18th but dear wife threatened me with mutilation if I did. It will be her graduation present in a year or so.
 
#531
#531
jp1 said:
If you pick up a RPG and aim at a convoy, then suddenly get shot....do you blame the guy looking through the scope?

War is a crappy situation however you want to slice it.
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If you're just walking through the remains of your city to visit your relatives and just happen to walk across a PLA patrol and some trigger-happy dude wastes your mom... what would you do?

You'd be the first in line to pick up an AR-15 and try to kill you some PLA.
 
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#532
#532
hog88 said:
Did we have a murderous dictator in power, does the PLA offer to rebuild our infrastructure and restore elected government?

Need a few more details before I can answer that question.
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I'm pretty sure our country has been murdering people for a while now. For various reasons, some good and some are not.

Have we rebuilt Iraq? I'm pretty sure the longest and most profound impact that we will have on that civilization is the massive amount of cancers and deformations from our munitions. Not the "infrastructure."

BTW i do agree that Sadam needed to go.
 
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#533
#533
hog88 said:
Yep, loved and miss it.

Was going to take my daughter for he 18th but dear wife threatened me with mutilation if I did. It will be her graduation present in a year or so.
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Did you ever fastrope?

That was the most fun I ever had. Never did airborne stuff though.
 
#534
#534
agent|orange said:
If you're just walking through the remains of your city to visit your relatives and just happen to walk across a PLA patrol and some trigger-happy dude wastes your mom... what would you do?

You'd be the first in line to pick up an AR-15 and try to kill you some PLA.
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You're dang right I would. If I get shot in the process is the other guy to blame?

I answered your question now would you please answer my previous one.
 
#535
#535
#VFL__ said:
I'm pretty sure our country has been murdering people for a while now. For various reasons, some good and some are not.

Have we rebuilt Iraq? I'm pretty sure the longest and most profound impact that we will have on that civilization is the massive amount of cancers and deformations from our munitions. Not the "infrastructure."

BTW i do agree that Sadam needed to go.
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You have a point but you're not doing it any service by lacing in hyperbole.

DU rounds were a bad idea in an urban battlefield. Also, Abrams chobham application and TUSK are rumored to have DU as well so it's not strictly munitions.
 
#536
#536
agent|orange said:
It is the job of a modern soldier (be it Army, Marines, SEAL, etc) to concern himself with that. Have you not read up on the ROE? You're not thinking about the US mission in Iraq/Afghanistan clearly if you think his job is to just start wasting people indiscriminately. This isn't a Duke Nukem game. He could waste 1 innocent and create 10 militants in one fell swoop.

And I have the utmost respect for Patton. He's great in a conventional war where he was given open latitude but he could barely operate in a conventional war without significant problems. He'd have been a spectacular success and then a spectacular failure. General Mattis, a guy that is a total bulldog on the battlefield (just look up some of his other quotes) said this:



Iraq required restraint, patience and a respect for the people the US was trying to work with. Mattis would unleash hellfire and brimstone on terrorists and insurgents but he didn't lose sight of the primary objective and that is bringing the Iraqi people in line with the US mission in Iraq. But General Mattis probably had no idea what he was talking about, right?
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It is the job of every soldier (inclusive) to follow orders and stay within the ROE which CK obviously did or would have been prosecuted. It's not the enlisted mans job to concern himself with war fighting strategy, get people killed that way.

You omit the fact Patton got in trouble for allowing some Nazi party members to remain in key positions during the occupation stage and didn't completely disband the German Army. It was a colossal mistake for us to not allow some Baath party members to remain in key positions and Army leadership.
 
#537
#537
#VFL__ said:
I'm pretty sure our country has been murdering people for a while now. For various reasons, some good and some are not.

Have we rebuilt Iraq? I'm pretty sure the longest and most profound impact that we will have on that civilization is the massive amount of cancers and deformations from our munitions. Not the "infrastructure."

BTW i do agree that Sadam needed to go.
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You didn't answer any of my questions so I cannot answer your hypothetical question.
 
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#538
#538
jp1 said:
If you pick up a RPG and aim at a convoy, then suddenly get shot....do you blame the guy looking through the scope?

War is a crappy situation however you want to slice it.
Click to expand...

Nope, I would blame the POS who made the decision to send a foreign army onto my soil.

The people who pull the triggers are not the problem. Just like cops who have to enforce laws that may or may not be just. They do what they have to do to survive.
 
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#540
#540
#VFL__ said:
Nope, I would blame the POS who made the decision to send a foreign army onto my soil.

The people who pull the triggers are not the problem. Just like cops who have to enforce laws that may or may not be just. They do what they have to do to survive.
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Even if that POS took out a despot ruler who was murdering your countrymen?
 
#542
#542
jp1 said:
You're dang right I would. If I get shot in the process is the other guy to blame?

I answered your question now would you please answer my previous one.
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Your previous question? The one about how many innocents Kyle killed?

Nobody knows. The best people can do is take his comments and allusions to events and guess.

Kyle also had a penchant for exaggerations and some outright lies (he lied about killing 2 carjackers, punching Ventura and going to NO for Katrina sniping). Who knows what he is saying is truth and what is a lie?

All I do know is Kyle spilling the beans within a very tightly knit and close-lipped community is very frowned upon within said community. But that's getting anecdotal so feel free to ignore.
 
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#545
#545
agent|orange said:
How many poor and destitute children did he leave without a mother or father that were killed because they were convicted by the judge/jury/executioner for being Iraqi and in the wrong place at the wrong time?

How many ISIS fighters started out as a son/nephew left without a family that in turn were easy targets for the ISIS/AQI/etc powers that turned them into front line fighters?

How many of those kids in turn buried a 122mm shell under a road that destroyed a HUMVEE or were used as a human bomb and killed dozens or hundreds of innocent Iraqis in line to sign up to be a policeman/soldier to protect their homeland?

This is the overarching strategy that Kyle didn't concern himself with. He sees the battlefield as a static entity but it's a very dynamic one. Guys like Kyle, honestly, have little place in a conflict like Iraq where there are no set front lines and the enemy are wearing uniforms to designate themselves combatants and everyone is following the Geneva Convention.

For the same reason a guy like Patton would have no place in Iraq. Kyle was an excellent marksman and definitely the type of guy I'd want watching over me if we were in a conventional war.

Being on the JCS requires equal parts political intrigue as it does military strategy. This is modern warfare and Kyle stood as almost an antithesis to it.
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You are really becoming quite an enigma....
 
#546
#546
#VFL__ said:
And what about all of the other dictators? What was so special about this one? Did they have something that we wanted?
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You posed a very good question, I just need a few more details before I can give a reasoned answer. So if you want an answer please expand. No need for deflection.
 
#547
#547
agent|orange said:
Your previous question? The one about how many innocents Kyle killed?

Nobody knows. The best people can do is take his comments and allusions to events and guess.

Kyle also had a penchant for exaggerations and some outright lies (he lied about killing 2 carjackers, punching Ventura and going to NO for Katrina sniping). Who knows what he is saying is truth and what is a lie?

All I do know is Kyle spilling the beans within a very tightly knit and close-lipped community is very frowned upon within said community. But that's getting anecdotal so feel free to ignore.
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Can you share the "comments and allusions" that suggest he killed innocents?
 
#548
#548
hog88 said:
You posed a very good question, I just need a few more details before I can give a reasoned answer. So if you want an answer please expand. No need for deflection.
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Well let's pause for a second. Is war profitable?
 
#550
#550
jp1 said:
Can you share the "comments and allusions" that suggest he killed innocents?
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It's honestly difficult to say. Kyle's interviews were very erratic. He'd say he supported the killing of unarmed people retrieving a body and then turn around and say the ROE saying they had to be armed was justified.

He had PTSD even if he didn't admit it so this makes a lot of his comments very difficult to discern truth from fiction.

My comments on him shooting unarmed did admittedly go off into the realm of "hypothetical" which is noted when I first started talking about it but didn't reiterate, which I should have.
 
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