CBJ and injuries

Sure, the buck stops at the boss's desk. Got that.

But show me proximate cause for our host of injuries over the past three years. Show me common denominators among any significant percentage of those proximate causes.

You can pound on the desk all day saying, "The buck must stop here!" but until you can find a clear pattern among the proximate causes of all these injuries, you're just sacrificing a virgin on the altar at the foot of the volcano because you don't really know what the hell's going on.



p.s. Not calling Butch a virgin, hehe.

He's not gonna be held responsible for injuries but rather what those cost him. Its obvious he knew that something had to be done and he appears to be throwing different things at it to fix it. Not because he will lose his job if 2 DTs go down but what that means on the scoreboard.

He doesn't have to the grace going forward to drop games to the Vandys and SCs of the world regardless of "bad luck" with injuries.
 
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He's not gonna be held responsible for injuries but rather what those cost him. Its obvious he knew that something had to be done and he appears to be throwing different things at it to fix it. Not because he will lose his job if 2 DTs go down but what that means on the scoreboard.

He doesn't have to the grace going forward to drop games to the Vandys and SCs of the world regardless of "bad luck" with injuries.

Ain't that the truth. CBJ used up his good will last year vs SC and now he owes us some wins due to Vandy.
 
He's not gonna be held responsible for injuries but rather what those cost him. Its obvious he knew that something had to be done and he appears to be throwing different things at it to fix it. Not because he will lose his job if 2 DTs go down but what that means on the scoreboard.

He doesn't have to the grace going forward to drop games to the Vandys and SCs of the world regardless of "bad luck" with injuries.

Now THIS, I agree with. Well said, Beecher. At the end of the day, Butch will be immortalized or vilified based on the Win-Loss columns (and keeping the program clean & respectable, of course).

Not on the details of how he got us there.
 
Sure, the buck stops at the boss's desk. Got that.

But show me proximate cause for our host of injuries over the past three years. Show me common denominators among any significant percentage of those proximate causes.

You can pound on the desk all day saying, "The buck must stop here!" but until you can find a clear pattern among the proximate causes of all these injuries, you're just sacrificing a virgin on the altar at the foot of the volcano because you don't really know what the hell's going on.



p.s. Not calling Butch a virgin, hehe.

No. Whole lotta words pointing out the very obvious fact that MOST of the factors that contribute to injury rates go back to decisions made by the HC.

I know some of you really want to avoid the fact that Jones hired Lawson and approved what he was doing for 3 years... to include after he was replaced by an understudy.

The other points should be obvious if you don't have an agenda to deny facts to deflect criticism from Jones.
 
FWIW, you don't have to know what's going on to see a problem and the potential causes. You may not know the precise cause for a bug in your egg drop soup... you may not be an expert on restaurant hygiene practices... but you can still have a good idea of potential sources for the problem.

If I "knew" the precise problem... I'd apply for a job. But it seems that CBJ in some fashion agrees with what I've laid out as potential causes... by his actions. Replaced S&C guy. Is changing practice methods. We'll see about the rotation this fall. Hopefully the new staff will help.
 
No. Whole lotta words pointing out the very obvious fact that MOST of the factors that contribute to injury rates go back to decisions made by the HC.

Well, it's not a "fact," and so it's not "obvious."

SJT, you haven't shown a single bit of evidence isolating the proximate cause of a single injury, much less establish a pattern of similar causes of any significant percentage of those injuries. None of us have done that; we're all just making stuff up and casting blame blindly.

Given that, the only solid footing you have is the old fallback, "well, he's the boss, it's all ultimately on him."

So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that (your best possible argument) was, in fact, your argument. If it wasn't, if you're leaning on something even more flimsy, my apologies for putting words in your mouth.
 
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Well, it's not a "fact," and so it's not "obvious."

SJT, you haven't shown a single bit of evidence isolating the proximate cause of a single injury, much less establish a pattern of similar causes of any significant percentage of those injuries. None of us have done that; we're all just making stuff up and casting blame blindly.
False. Just another attempt on your part to avoid place blame at the ONLY guy responsible for every aspect of the program... the "caretaker". Jones chose to stick with Lawson and Lawson's philosophy. Recently, we had players talking about how much better CRG is... Shouldn't an HC see and respond to that problem BEFORE guys are injured?

But since you are insistent in the suggestion I am being unreasonable... prove it. Prove that A) the things I've listed do not contribute to injuries and B) that they are NOT controlled ultimately by the HC.

Given that, the only solid footing you have is the old fallback, "well, he's the boss, it's all ultimately on him."
Or that there are causes for performance trends... and the ones I listed while probably not all inclusive are some big ones. And yes. Part of the HC job is to manage the program and staff... to determine effectiveness. Thanks for at least acknowledging that.

So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that (your best possible argument) was, in fact, your argument. If it wasn't, if you're leaning on something even more flimsy, my apologies for putting words in your mouth.
Nothing "flimsy" about the FACT that there is a 3 year pattern of higher than normal injuries or that patterns and trends have causes.
 
Ultimate responsibility falls on the HC. Now that we all agree on that, what specifically caused each injury?

Technique?

Fatigue?

Cheap shots?

Game plan?

S&C program?

We all want to see the data so we can pick out the trends and then do something about all the injuries.

All injuries are preventable. But at what cost? Sitting around in bubble wrap isn't the answer just like taking less snaps isn't the answer. An injury can occur on the 1st play, the last play, or any of the plays in between.

Big Charles broke his leg in a car accident.
 
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SJT, you keep saying the same thing over and over again, without adding any data of value. We got that Butch is head coach, so has overall responsibility for everything. Got it.

Come back with info of the type Iam4utalways lists to actually add value to the conversation. Until someone gets down in the weeds and finds PROXIMATE CAUSES of each of the many injuries, then looks for patterns among all those proximate causes, we're all just standing around the foot of the volcano scratching our butts and preparing the virgin for sacrifice.

Yes, that includes you. And me as well.



p.s. I'm not deflecting anything, defending anyone. Simply pointing out the lack of logical and intellectual rigor in this entire conversation.
 
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Ultimate responsibility falls on the HC. Now that we all agree on that, what specifically caused each injury?

Technique?

Fatigue?

Cheap shots?

Game plan?

S&C program?

We all want to see the data so we can pick out the trends and then do something about all the injuries.

All injuries are preventable. But at what cost? Sitting around in bubble wrap isn't the answer just like taking less snaps isn't the answer. An injury can occur on the 1st play, the last play, or any of the plays in between.

Big Charles broke his leg in a car accident.

While responsibility may lie on the HC, how much of this is really under his control?

That is why it is important to look at patterns.

The HC can't control cheap shots from the other team except to complain to the refs and other HC about them.

The HC can't control injuries off the football field (e.g. car accident, slipping on ice while playing in the snow, etc.) unless he wants to treat the players as prisoners while they are at school.

The HC can control the other things you mention but has to determine the cause. If the fatigue because there is lack of depth? Is the fatigue because the injuries are resulting with a player being use more than they would have been?

If the technique because the player is true freshman with very little coaching that is called on to play because of depth and/or injuries.

Agree it is up to the HC to figure the cause and employ change ... but normally a situation like what Tennessee has gone through is not the result of just one thing.

Personally I think this all leads back to the need to build depth coupled with the need to use younger players in key roles - those younger players are sometimes just not ready yet.
 
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Examples of proximate cause:

-- Player A slipped on the wet turf, got his legs spread apart, and twisted his knee to the side. Proximate cause: footing (check on cleats, condition of turf, decision to play in rain).

-- Player B's knee crumpled after a cheap shot from behind by the opposing offensive guard. Proximate cause: a**hole.

-- Player C was injured in an automobile accident while on personal time away from the team. Other person ran a red light, player not cited by police, wasn't at fault. Proximate cause: other driver running red light.

-- Player D injured left shoulder with possible tear to rotator cuff while lifting weights (bench press). Weight used at the point of injury was only 60% of the player's personal best, and player was properly spotted by a fellow player. Possible pre-existing condition exacerbated by the exercise. Proximate cause: lifting weight, but likely a pre-existing condition as the weights and motions involved would normally not be expected to cause this injury.

...

and so on. Someone said we've had 40-60 injuries over the past three seasons (though several of them may be exacerbation/extension of previous injuries), so there's a lot of research to do.

...

Once you get all the proximate causes figured out, you can look for patterns among all of them.

And if you find one or more patterns, then (and only then) you can begin to affix blame.

...

Short of that, we're still sacrificing virgins or just falling back to "let's blame the boss because he's in charge".
 
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While responsibility may lie on the HC, how much of this is really under his control?

It doesn't matter either way really.

He's responsible for the finished product or end result which has factors that are not in his control. He is playing with the same factors every other coach is.
 
The elite S&C coaches don't get paid more than most head coaches. Period.

Top-end pay for a college S&C coach is around $500K/year. Which is a lot for most of us ordinary joes, but it's a pittance compared to even just the average Power 5 football or men's basketball coach.

One 'for instance': Nick Saban makes about $7M/year. His S&C coach, one of the highest-paid in the country, makes less than one-tenth that, at $525K/year.

They're well paid at the top programs, sure, but not head-coach-level of well-paid.

That's better than the bottom 28 BCS head coaches and most every FCS head coaches
 
That's better than the bottom 28 BCS head coaches and most every FCS head coaches

Yeah, but have you seen how much the S&C coaches make at those bottom 28 schools? They're still WAY below their own head coaches.

Doesn't matter if you compare the top-paid head coach to the top-paid S&C coach, or the lowest-paid head coach to the lowest-paid S&C coach, or the average Division I head coach to the average Division I S&C coach.

The head coach wins in salary. Every single time. By a LOT, usually multiples of 5 to 10 times as much.


(a polite way of saying that you don't get to compare the salary of Nick Saban's S&C guy to the salary of the head coach at Alford State, as proof that "S&C coaches make more than head coaches.")


p.s. According to a quick google search, the average annual salary of S&C coaches across America (at all levels, pro, college, even high school where they have one) is about $40,000. Not $400,000, forty thousand. It's not the "get rich quick" career path some might think it is, Power 5, NFL and NBA gigs aside.
 
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Examples of proximate cause:

-- Player A slipped on the wet turf, got his legs spread apart, and twisted his knee to the side. Proximate cause: footing (check on cleats, condition of turf, decision to play in rain).

-- Player B's knee crumpled after a cheap shot from behind by the opposing offensive guard. Proximate cause: a**hole.

-- Player C was injured in an automobile accident while on personal time away from the team. Other person ran a red light, player not cited by police, wasn't at fault. Proximate cause: other driver running red light.

-- Player D injured left shoulder with possible tear to rotator cuff while lifting weights (bench press). Weight used at the point of injury was only 60% of the player's personal best, and player was properly spotted by a fellow player. Possible pre-existing condition exacerbated by the exercise. Proximate cause: lifting weight, but likely a pre-existing condition as the weights and motions involved would normally not be expected to cause this injury.

...

and so on. Someone said we've had 40-60 injuries over the past three seasons (though several of them may be exacerbation/extension of previous injuries), so there's a lot of research to do.

...

Once you get all the proximate causes figured out, you can look for patterns among all of them.

And if you find one or more patterns, then (and only then) you can begin to affix blame.

...

Short of that, we're still sacrificing virgins or just falling back to "let's blame the boss because he's in charge".


I stated one earlier, but it got no action.

Don't play stud starters on special teams coverage.

That's on the head coach.

Somebody was injured on coverage last year. Reeves-Maybin?
 
I stated one earlier, but it got no action.

Don't play stud starters on special teams coverage.

That's on the head coach.

Somebody was injured on coverage last year. Reeves-Maybin?

Special teams are where the breaks are made, though. Why not maximize our chances of getting the breaks?

How many successful Power 5 coaches man their special teams only with players who are not offensive or defensive starters? Would be interested in finding that out. [I suspect the answer is somewhere in the vicinity of 'zero']

Would also be interesting to see a cost-benefit analysis of (1) breaks gained in special teams versus (2) starters lost to injury in special teams. As one example: assume Evan Berry was injured in 2016 during a special teams play (I don't know this to be true, he could've been playing on defense at S at the time, but let's assume it). Was that injury offset by all the value he added to our team as our Special Teams kickoff returner in 2015 and 2016? Was it "worth the cost," the benefit he gave us in that role? Some folks might say "not only yeah, but HELL yeah!" ... definitely worth doing a cost-benefit analysis.
 
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umm wasnt the majority of defensive linemen out for the spring game out due to injuries substained last season?
 
Special teams are where the breaks are made, though. Why not maximize our chances of getting the breaks?

How many successful Power 5 coaches man their special teams only with players who are not offensive or defensive starters? Would be interested in finding that out. [I suspect the answer is somewhere in the vicinity of 'zero']

Would also be interesting to see a cost-benefit analysis of (1) breaks gained in special teams versus (2) starters lost to injury in special teams. As one example: assume Evan Berry was injured in 2016 during a special teams play (I don't know this to be true, he could've been playing on defense at S at the time, but let's assume it). Was that injury offset by all the value he added to our team as our Special Teams kickoff returner in 2015 and 2016? Was it "worth the cost," the benefit he gave us in that role? Some folks might say "not only yeah, but HELL yeah!" ... definitely worth doing a cost-benefit analysis.


I said coverage, not return teams.

Do that analysis, and I bet you come back with a result that I am calling for.

Good Lord, A&M's most celebrated coverage guy is ALWAYS a walk on.
 
I said coverage, not return teams.

Do that analysis, and I bet you come back with a result that I am calling for.

Good Lord, A&M's most celebrated coverage guy is ALWAYS a walk on.

Would love to see the analysis. Until then, it's just another hypothesis.
 
Pretty sure Reeves-Maybin injured his shoulder on special teams coverage.

That's not a hypothesis.

Your hypothesis is that putting starters on special teams coverage units costs us more in lost starter play time from injury than it benefits us in better special teams play.

Until you do the analysis to see if that's true or false, it's just a thought you had.

Don't get me wrong: I think you could be right. We just won't know until someone figures it out by doing the research.
 
SJT, you keep saying the same thing over and over again, without adding any data of value. We got that Butch is head coach, so has overall responsibility for everything. Got it.
Then stop arguing if you "got it".

As for data, do you deny that UT has had extraordinary injury rates for the last 3 years? Do you deny that anything I listed is NOT a contributing factor to injuries within the control of the HC?

Come back with info of the type Iam4utalways lists to actually add value to the conversation. Until someone gets down in the weeds and finds PROXIMATE CAUSES of each of the many injuries, then looks for patterns among all those proximate causes, we're all just standing around the foot of the volcano scratching our butts and preparing the virgin for sacrifice.
Right. You are denying what CAN be seen because the details aren't available. That's like saying economic statistics do not avail themselves to policy criticism because we cannot detail how specific policies hurt specific businesses.

p.s. I'm not deflecting anything, defending anyone. Simply pointing out the lack of logical and intellectual rigor in this entire conversation.

Yeah. That is the effect if not the intent.

But let's try this. Two years ago in the fall both the players and coaches talked about the intensity and pace of August camp practices. During that camp, there were injuries that can be directly related back to fatigue. I believe McNeil was one of the injured.

Another proof is that in '14 and '15 many of the injuries occurred during August and in practice. Jones DID change practice... and in '16 more injuries occurred during the season. Overreaction?
 
Your hypothesis is that putting starters on special teams coverage units costs us more in lost starter play time from injury than it benefits us in better special teams play.

Until you do the analysis to see if that's true or false, it's just a thought you had.

Holy cow... you are really playing that non-sense to the maximum, aren't you?

Are you willing to stipulate that fatigue, improper conditioning, improper techniques, and innate personal factors are contributors to injury... or do you require an encyclopedia of "proof" for those cause-effect relationships too?
 
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Your hypothesis is that putting starters on special teams coverage units costs us more in lost starter play time from injury than it benefits us in better special teams play.

Until you do the analysis to see if that's true or false, it's just a thought you had.

Don't get me wrong: I think you could be right. We just won't know until someone figures it out by doing the research.


Well, Reeves Maybin missed the entirety of the season after a special teams coverage tackle against THE OHIO FREAKING BOBCATS.

Research complete.

Why you continue to debate this specific point is a head scratcher.
 
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