Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

[thebjd]

Even not counting the post season, your math is wrong. 5 to 6 to 8 is +1.5 a year, the same rate of improvement as Majors and Clevenger achieved.

We have not won eight yet. I don't see us losing one but we are not at 8. For argument's sake though year one was a zero game improvement, year two was a one game improvement. That is a 0.5 win per year increase. If we get to eight this year then that is a plus two. 2+.5+.5=3. 3/3=1. If he gets to eight the school has improved one game per year. Kiffin was plus two in year zero or year one so is he the gold standard?

 

[BeecherVol]

 

[ReaderVol]

I love it. Anyone with common sense understands what he's saying. I'm beginning to think he's baiting the negas just to give them something else to cry about.

 

[volgrad500]

And your point, 500?

The B10 is weak. But Ohio State is arguably the best team in the country. Certainly one of the best.

You think Florida is going to shed tears that they got to the SEC CG against a weaker-than-normal division? If they make it to the playoffs after beating an SEC West champion in Atlanta, you think they're going to give back their trophy because the East is down?

Butch is climbing the ladder, as illustrated above, and is doing so no matter what the rest of the East looks like.

Our opponents are weak in part because we have made them look weak by beating them.

Some folks always set their own team at '0' and judge the world in comparison. Which means anyone they beat was in the negative numbers, a weak team.

In absolute terms, Tennessee is a very good football team this year. All the measuring systems other than popularity polls (Sagarin, Steele, ESPN FPI, etc.) recognize that.

Just because some in VolNation don't, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to with them.

The point is, simply counting a one game increase in the win total doesn't really tell you much. If every team in the East is much worse than in years past, we can still be struggling and not get exposed.

Vandy just beat the defending East champs, then got shutout 34-0 by Houston. But by your way of thinking, when we beat this years Missouri team that will show progress because we couldn't beat Mizzou last year. Do you see the fallacy in that logic?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

A serious question. What good team have beat this year that made them look weak? We played three good teams to the wire and lost to a pretty bad team. UGA?

I don't know if you remember, BJD, but right after the Oklahoma game, folks were talking about how weak and pitiful Oklahoma's team is, and how much of a travesty it was that we lost to them.

Of course, OK has largely succeeded since then and folks are no longer saying that. But they were.

Folks were trashing Florida before and after we played them, talking about how horribly depleted of talent they were, they didn't have any offense, defense devastated by NFL departures, etc. Talking about how we found a way to lose in the final minutes to a god-awful team.

After we lost to Bama, folks said the same: way over-rated, weakest Bama team in a decade, etc.

And of course, Georgia. As you already mentioned. Won't belabor the point.

So it's even worse than "what team have we beat that makes them look weak"...it's "what teams have we played that makes them look weak." And the answer is, according to some on VolNation: all of them.

Don't believe me? Just revisit the threads spawned after each of those games.

Some here on VolNation set Tennessee at the '0' / 'neutral' mark, and judge everyone else from there, rather than recognizing that our team is getting better year after year.

 

[Volsick]

"Build a Program"

Not, win games. We should finish at 8-4 hopefully 9-4 with a bowl. Then go into the off season recruit well, and come out next year and compete for an SEC title.

 

[thebjd]

I don't know if you remember, BJD, but right after the Oklahoma game, folks were talking about how weak and pitiful Oklahoma's team is, and how much of a travesty it was that we lost to them.

Of course, OK has largely succeeded since then and folks are no longer saying that. But they were.

Folks were trashing Florida before and after we played them, talking about how horribly depleted of talent they were, they didn't have any offense, defense devastated by NFL departures, etc. Talking about how we found a way to lose in the final minutes to a god-awful team.

After we lost to Bama, folks said the same: way over-rated, weakest Bama team in a decade, etc.

And of course, Georgia. As you already mentioned. Won't belabor the point.

So it's even worse than "what team have we beat that makes them look weak"...it's "what teams have we played that makes them look weak." And the answer is, according to some on VolNation: all of them.

Don't believe me? Just revisit the threads spawned after each of those games.

Some here on VolNation set Tennessee at the '0' / 'neutral' mark, and judge everyone else from there, rather than recognizing that our team is getting better year after year.

Our team is better but it can't be spun into some miracle story.

 

[bamawriter]

I've been impressed by what Tennessee has done this year. The improvement is obvious.

But what an odd statement to for Jones to make. This isn't the 70s. You don't get 6-7 years to have everything set the way you want it. It was unrealistic for anyone to insist that UT win the East in year 3. But it is in no way unrealistic to insist that UT not be eliminated from the East race before their 5th conference game even kicks off. Especially when the East in 2015 might be the worst division since the conference split.

Jones had a major hill to climb when he took over. He's been working his way up that hill. But the opportunity was there to make noise in year 3, and he missed it. The idea that the fanbase should accept that the climb is going to take that much longer is absurd.

 

[KBVol]

Is there a chance he knows that he is ahead of the time frame, and is giving the team a pat on the back. We are so close and that's why the losses we have, hurt so much. They were ours, and we blew it. We may lose games, but I don't see us blowing games again.

Go Vols!

But if he's ahead of schedule, why not exude some confidence? Why not let your fans and players know that we're close, we're coming, we're on our way? Personally I can see it. While incredibly disappointed in the blown wins vs OU and Florida, I see the progress, the talent, the competitiveness. We've led in every game this season, including having leads in the 4th quarter in 7 of 8 games. We're close...embrace it, be proud of it. Don't downplay it and invite the criticism.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The point is, simply counting a one game increase in the win total doesn't really tell you much. If every team in the East is much worse than in years past, we can still be struggling and not get exposed.

Vandy just beat the defending East champs, then got shutout 34-0 by Houston. But by your way of thinking, when we beat this years Missouri team that will show progress because we couldn't beat Mizzou last year. Do you see the fallacy in that logic?

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. The pier didn't get taller just because the tide went out. Got it.

But I try to deal in absolutes, not relative measurements. It's hard in football, because when you get down to absolutes (team speed, strength, quickness) it becomes so divorced from actual performance on the field as to be almost meaningless. And at the end of the day, all that matters is Ws and Ls, anyway.

But here's my counter-point: it doesn't matter.

If Florida wins the East, no matter how strong or weak, they are one 60-minute football game away from winning the SEC. No matter how strong or weak it is. And then they're one 60-minute game away from making the NCG, no matter how strong or weak their semi-final opponent was. And then they're one 60-minute game away from being national champs, no matter how strong or weak this year's competition was across the entire country.

Folks talk about one year being stronger than another year...but see, that's impossible to tell. Because in football, almost everything is relative. Absolutes are very hard (nigh impossible) to measure in any meaningful way.

So rather than worry about whether the East was strong or weak this year, just win the darn games. Then test yourself in Atlanta. If you win there, what came before becomes irrelevant. And so on.

 

[velovol]

I always get distracted by those 'You may like' links at the bottom of those type websites.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Edit: I just don't understand his thinking in saying this at the moment. He's doing a great job with the program, he had a signature win vs Georgia and played Bama down to the wire....he should be feeling little to no heat right now....90% of fans are good with him, as he likely gets us to 8 wins and a decent bowl game. Did he damn near singlehandedly cost us 2 very good wins vs OU and Florida due to his poor gameday coaching acumen? Yes, it's well-documented. But nobody is calling for his job, things are going well, most of us are all good. Why say this?

KB, I agree it was tone deaf of him. He should've anticipated how it would be interpreted (as witnessed here on VN). But remember: rumors running around about coaching changes early this season, including some speculation about Jones and Va Tech. Maybe part of the reason he talked about his long term plans here were to reassure any concern in that regard.

Tone deaf? Yeah, some. Didn't think through all the ways it could be interpreted? Absolutely. Stupid? Nah, wouldn't go that far. A travesty worthy of pulling our hair out, as some in this thread seem to be doing? Heck no.

 

[BeecherVol]

Jones had a major hill to climb when he took over. He's been working his way up that hill. But the opportunity was there to make noise in year 3, and he missed it. The idea that the fanbase should accept that the climb is going to take that much longer is absurd.

Its really that simple.

 

[therickbol]

Butch Jones: It takes six or seven years in the SEC to build a program

An excerpt from the article...

While we live in a world of instant gratification, Jones — just in his 3rd season in Knoxville — scaled back expectations a little and indicated that he may need an additional three years at the least to fully bring the Vols back to prominence. Jones identified weak spots right now in the program such as the offensive line, defensive line and receivers.

That is truth. He said to 'build a program' not to win some games. I hope you don't think UF has built the program back to where Coach Mac wants it just because things have come together and he has won some games this season. Even if we won those close games we lost, we still would not have our program built back to where it needs to be right now. Still got work to do.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Our team is better but it can't be spun into some miracle story.

Good thing no one is saying miracle story.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

6-7 years? Unacceptable. 10 win minimum next year. This year should have been a 10 win year and next year the schedule is friendlier.

6-7 years? Please. That is just garbage.

 

[DownNDirty]

I don't know if you remember, BJD, but right after the Oklahoma game, folks were talking about how weak and pitiful Oklahoma's team is, and how much of a travesty it was that we lost to them.

Of course, OK has largely succeeded since then and folks are no longer saying that. But they were..

Wait, wait, wait. Hold it. Oklahoma football 2015 schedule:

Akron (3-5) - 41-3 W

Akron has beaten Savannah St, Louisiana-Lafayette, and Eastern Michigan.

@Tennessee (4-4) - 31-24 W


Tulsa (4-4) - 52-38 W

Tulsa's 4 wins are over Florida Atlantic, New Mexico, Louisiana-Monroe, and SMU

West Virginia (3-4) - 44-24 W

WVU's 3 wins are over Georgia Southern, Liberty, and Maryland. Holgerson is likely getting fired at the end of this season.

@Texas (3-5) - 24-17 L

Texas has wins over Rice, Oklahoma, and Kansas State

@Kansas St (3-4) 55-0 W

KSU's wins are over South Dakota, Texas San-Antonio, and Louisiana Tech

Texas Tech (5-4) - 63-27 W

TT's wins over Sam Houston State, UTEP, Arkansas, Iowa State, and Kansas

@Kansas (0-8) - 62-7 W

Winless - and they even lost to South Dakota State

So, records of Oklahoma's opponents are 25-38. 40% winning percentage of Oklahoma's opponents. Let's not crown them just yet. They very easily could lose 3 in a row to end the season. If they manage to win out then yes they would be considered a good team for sure.

 

[sjt18]

I agree, you make an excellent point..."hey Jalen, come play at Tennessee, your home school. Come bust your arse for 3 years, come help us recruit players, come help us promote the program.....and 3 years after you're long gone I'm gonna get this team to winning at a high, consistent level."

"Hey fans, just wait for it, we're gonna win a championship of some kind at Tennessee, it's coming......it's just gonna take twice as much time as every other coach is given and 5 to 6 years longer than it's taken McElwain down in Florida."

Jones may be right, he may need 6 or 7 years......but it's incredibly tone deaf and just an awful message to send to both the fans and players alike IMO.


Edit: I just don't understand his thinking in saying this at the moment. He's doing a great job with the program, he had a signature win vs Georgia and played Bama down to the wire....he should be feeling little to no heat right now....90% of fans are good with him, as he likely gets us to 8 wins and a decent bowl game. Did he damn near singlehandedly cost us 2 very good wins vs OU and Florida due to his poor gameday coaching acumen? Yes, it's well-documented. But nobody is calling for his job, things are going well, most of us are all good. Why say this?

He forgot the part where if it takes that long to build a program... the process is almost never completed by the guy who started it.

This is a guy who pulls out some of the most obscure factoids that you will ever hear. Hard to believe that he doesn't know the very low success rate of coaches that do not make significant improvements within their first 3 years.

Even if he truly believes it.... which I hope he doesn't... it was a manifestly stupid statement with regard to recruiting. It is pathetically weak if he believes it. And... he claims to be the most impatient of anyone. If he's giving himself 6 years before he thinks his program building should be judged.... he's not even close to as impatient as the vast majority of us.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I've been impressed by what Tennessee has done this year. The improvement is obvious.

...

Jones had a major hill to climb when he took over. He's been working his way up that hill. But the opportunity was there to make noise in year 3, and he missed it. The idea that the fanbase should accept that the climb is going to take that much longer is absurd.

Change "the" to "an" and I'm with you. 2015 has been an opportunity to break out. 2016 will be the next opportunity to break out. Perhaps the best opportunity.

Butch doesn't have endless opportunities. He knows that. He'd like to have as many as he can get, of course. He's human.

But he knows he's got the team on the verge. No doubts there.

 

[jakez4ut]

i don't know the context of how he came to make that statement.

i find it hard to believe he just came out and said it out of the clear blue.......my gut says it's probably in the vein of what he has described many many times as the sustainability of a program, not a team. he's made mention of this several times in discussing the programs at OU and Bama.

the ability to sustain success at a high level, over time, takes time to build to that.

i think this is probably more in line with what was probably meant, more than the notion of "hey folks, get ready, we're barely half way there, so sit tight, be patient we're gonna suck for another 3-4 years".

 

[Bluetic]

CWM was a great recruiter while he was at Florida. CJM is very fortunate.

:good!: Curious to see Mac recruit. He had the fullest stable around when he was at Bama too, and he certainly didn't play much SEC caliber competition at CSU. Besides, even he said he was lucky to have won the UT game.
Come to think of it, I'm curious to see if Butch can keep recruiting at a high level if his program isn't relevant for 6 or 7 years!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

...it was a manifestly stupid statement with regard to recruiting....

Actually, from a recruiting perspective, it wasn't stupid at all.

Anyone he recruits today is going to be on the team 3-4 years from now when year 6 or 7 arrives. They'll be RS sophomores or juniors, with a very few non-RS seniors.

 

[90 Vol]

Butch Jones: It takes six or seven years in the SEC to build a program

An excerpt from the article...

While we live in a world of instant gratification, Jones — just in his 3rd season in Knoxville — scaled back expectations a little and indicated that he may need an additional three years at the least to fully bring the Vols back to prominence. Jones identified weak spots right now in the program such as the offensive line, defensive line and receivers.

It depends on what you started with and the definition of rebuilt. If we're talking about going from an absolute dumpster fire to a CFB playoff team, he's probably right.

 

[KBVol]

KB, I agree it was tone deaf of him. He should've anticipated how it would be interpreted (as witnessed here on VN). But remember: rumors running around about coaching changes early this season, including some speculation about Jones and Va Tech. Maybe part of the reason he talked about his long term plans here were to reassure any concern in that regard.

Tone deaf? Yeah, some. Didn't think through all the ways it could be interpreted? Absolutely. Stupid? Nah, wouldn't go that far. A travesty worthy of pulling our hair out, as some in this thread seem to be doing? Heck no.

Not a travesty, not pulling out my hair. Just don't get it. We're all trying to assign reasons for why he said it, but for me, he gets no benefit of the doubt regarding a solid ulterior motive due to some other statements he's made that were clearly targeted at tamping down reasonable expectations....most notably the "this team is actually younger than last year's team", something that was provably false.

Look, given the circumstances of the program which were very bad (not the worst ever, but bad), many/most of us were saying he gets 4 years no matter what, barring a winless season and/or some major scandal. Other coaches have proven that they can come in and turn around programs resembling a tire fire into a winning program in short order....can win all they games they're supposed to, win a lot of games they weren't supposed to, get to their conference title game in 1-3 years....some even go undefeated and win national titles by year 2 or 3.

Nobody's expecting a national title in year 3 or 4.....we're also sure as hell not expecting it to take 7 years to get to play Bama twice in a season, the second time being in Atlanta. Somebody with some "fanbase savvy" needs to get in his ear and let him know that he's bringing uneccessary scrutiny on himself. If he just can't bring himself to put forth a confident, aggressive message reassuring the players and fans that we're actually a strong, competitive team that could've/should've played in the SECCG, then fine....just don't say anything at all....just say nothing and appreciate the near universal support he's getting right now after the UGA, Bama and Ky games.

 

[sjt18]

Change "the" to "an" and I'm with you. 2015 has been an opportunity to break out. 2016 will be the next opportunity to break out. Perhaps the best opportunity.

Butch doesn't have endless opportunities. He knows that. He'd like to have as many as he can get, of course. He's human.

But he knows he's got the team on the verge. No doubts there.

However you want to spin it... it comes across as him pre-stating excuses for not succeeding in '16 as you and many others expect. "Well, I never said we would win in year 4... It's a process. It takes time...."

His problem isn't time as much as it is attrition. Attrition from guys leaving. Attrition from injuries. He will NEVER coach a sufficiently deep team at UT unless he gets a grip on these two factors.

HALF of the WR's we were so optimistic about have been injured all season or a significant portion. They had WR injury issues last year as well. I doubt they can recruit much less carry 18 WR's so that 9 are available like Jones says he wants. I don't hear other coaches saying that... but Jones does.