Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

[titansvolsfaninga]

There's a bunch of variables in that. Like what did the coaches inherit the first two years and injuries. So, bottom line? No I think not.

if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail....that is the flawed logic that everyone is using as it pertains to winning the SEC and NC. There are a lot of different variables involved.

 

[ajvol01]

People are embarrassing themselves when they make comparisons to Saban/Dantonio at Michigan State. Even after all these years they still can't recruit with us. Literally the only advantage they have over Tennessee is in the coaching department.

MSU's schedule is a pretty big advantage IMO.

 

[JC61]

For me, it's not about national titles, it's SEC titles. For me, it's meeting your goal if you win and SEC title and get in the discussion/have an opportunity to win a National Title. Those are my expectations for Tennessee, jmo.

I can see and agree with that perspective.

So bottom line, based on 24 historical SEC seasons, you better get to 9 wins in one of your first 2 seasons (usually year 2), or you'll never win an SEC title.

or...you need to coach at UA or UF where the talent is typically superior...and occasionally at UT, LSU, UGA or AU with sufficient talent and coaching...and a little luck, which could validate the outliers; i.e. coaches who made and won it once.

While a few have sniffed the trophy...only 4 other schools / teams have made it to the SECCG but didn't win and I don't see that changing much anytime soon.

 

[KBVol]

or...you need to coach at UA or UF where the talent is typically superior...and occasionally at UT, LSU, UGA or AU with sufficient talent and coaching...and a little luck, which could validate the outliers; i.e. coaches who made and won it once.

While a few have sniffed the trophy...only 4 other schools / teams have made it to the SECCG but didn't win and I don't see that changing much anytime soon.

So you're not gonna give Saban, Spurrier and Meyer any credit here huh? Wonder why Dubose, Shula and Perkins at Bama and Muschamp and Zook at Florida didnt have the same type of success those other 3 did, since those programs have all the talent in the conference. Coaching shouldn't matter, right?

Also, while you're trying to suggest that Florida and Bama just have a monopoly on winning the SEC/playing in the SECCG, you then reference 8 other teams...over half of the conference. Lol. Fact is, every team in the SEC except Vandy and Kentucky from the east and TAM & OleMiss have played in the SECCG. That's 10 of 14 teams. So, at the end of the day, it's actually coaching that makes the ultimate difference, as the best coaches in this league since 1992 have fully illustrated.

 

[Smokey123]

Early in his career? That's your theory?

Most coaches don't win national titles in like year 3 of being a coach because most coaches start out at minor programs where that's not possible and then work their way up. Harbaugh went 11-1 in year 2 (and year 3) of being a HC, but he was at San Diego. Urban Meyer went 12-0 in year 4, but he was at Utah so no title. It's not like it took those guys a decade to learn how to win.

K, Then name coaches that won a natty by year 3 of being at a P5 school and didnt become a Bust. I think your forgetting CBJ is only in year 3 and has only been a HC for 9 years.

 

[JC61]

So you're not gonna give Saban, Spurrier and Meyer any credit here huh? Wonder why Dubose, Shula and Perkins at Bama and Muschamp and Zook at Florida didnt have the same type of success those other 3 did, since those programs have all the talent in the conference. Coaching shouldn't matter, right?

Coaching does matter and I do give them credit. Spurrier was the man back in the day and should get full credit for making UF into a serial winner in the SEC; Saban and Meyer are arguably the best at what they do (although I'm starting to believe UM is caustic). In general, I just don't think it's as hard to win at UA and UF as other SEC schools....due to talent available. There are really only 3 coaches at those 2 schools in the last 35 years who stunk it up...but they may have legitimate defenses as well.

Perkins did pretty well at UA after the Bear retired...but not good enough, and few could following that legend. Curry didn't do so bad either but couldn't beat Auburn.

Stallings comes in, wins a NC, but puts UA in major sanctions...While Debose proved he wasn't a great HC, to be honest, he did inherit those sanctions and still managed a decent season as you indicated.

Francione did ok in his short time, but put them back on probation....one that Shula inherited and paid for initially, and while he was probably too young / green for the task, even he managed a 10 win season (vacated)...plus, recruiting was still ok and he didn't leave Saban a depleted roster.

Zook appeared mediocre following Spurrier, but he didn't do that bad and had the luxury of playing Miami and FSU when they were juggernauts, and almost all his losses were to higher ranked teams. He did recruit fairly well and didn't hand Meyer a mess.

Muschamp is another story...probably their Dooley, but I do think Meyer ran that program in the ground (I think we're going to see something similar at OSU in the future) and he wasn't good enough to bring it back...yet, his teams were competitive for the most part.

 

[JC61]

Also, while you're trying to suggest that Florida and Bama just have a monopoly on winning the SEC/playing in the SECCG, you then reference 8 other teams...over half of the conference. Lol. Fact is, every team in the SEC except Vandy and Kentucky from the east and TAM & OleMiss have played in the SECCG. That's 10 of 14 teams. So, at the end of the day, it's actually coaching that makes the ultimate difference, as the best coaches in this league since 1992 have fully illustrated.

Just like your outlier theory on Debose, backing into the game once or twice isn't an Lol to me...its an anomaly, which is somewhat supported by the fact they didn't win and were beaten handily.

History shows that UA and UF have a monopoly on playing in the SECCG, 13 of 24 games had one or both, and it is due to coaching and the talent amassed at those schools...just not as hard to get that talent as it is elsewhere.

The other 4 with more than 1 win and multiple appearances are generally top tier SEC programs and make it to the CG every few years, but the coaching, talent and maybe luck isn't there as consistently.

Just my perspective.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

You're missing the point, nobody ever compare Tennessee to MSU. They had to rebuild completely rebuild. It took Saban 5 years just to get 8 wins, the reason why? He was early in his career. Look how quick Dantonio did it. Won 9 games in year 2.

Here's a challenge for you. Name as many coaches that you can that won a Natty in their first 9 years of being a HC(there's not a lot) Then, after you find all them, figure out how many of them have been a bust. Like Coker or Chizik. Since you think HC's just win natty's so quickly in their career now.

There were 2 coaches at MSU between Saban and Dantonio who both had losing records and went a combined 38-43. Dantonio had to rebuild everything Saban started and did so quicker.

 

[photovol]

Who believes everything Butch Jones says?

 

[Smokey123]

There were 2 coaches at MSU between Saban and Dantonio who both had losing records and went a combined 38-43. Dantonio had to rebuild everything Saban started and did so quicker.

That's my point. But who's the better coach? I'd take Saban all day long. Just because you had success quickly doesn't make you better than a guy who didn't.

 

[KBVol]

Just like your outlier theory on Debose, backing into the game once or twice isn't an Lol to me...its an anomaly, which is somewhat supported by the fact they didn't win and were beaten handily.

History shows that UA and UF have a monopoly on playing in the SECCG, 13 of 24 games had one or both, and it is due to coaching and the talent amassed at those schools...just not as hard to get that talent as it is elsewhere.

The other 4 with more than 1 win and multiple appearances are generally top tier SEC programs and make it to the CG every few years, but the coaching, talent and maybe luck isn't there as consistently.

Just my perspective.

Appreciate the civil discussion. Apologies for the snarky lol.

You make some good points that I agree with. It's often multiple factors, multiple variables that lead the titles. Need players AND coaching....I just think that the best coaches, the guys who are consistently at the top and with titles, are the ones who do both beautifully. So, while it's true that Florida and Bama are easiest to recruit to, not every coach wins at those schools. Also, it can be argued that Georgia is the best job in the SEC with the most fertile recruiting base, yet Richt has had very limited success getting to the SECCG and he's not sniffed a national title game. I just believe that had a Saban, a Spurrier, a Meyer, a Dantonio, Snyder or Shaw been at Georgia the last 15 years rather than Richt, that Georgia would have a few titles to show for the natural resources that surround them.

Anywho, let's hope Jones gets better and figures out the formula that the best of the best have mastered. I think he's almost there, but there's certainly a piece missing. Contrary to what many seem to think on here, even those of us who criticize aspects of his performance and his results badly war him to succeed at the very highest level.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Butch inherited an equally abysmal TN team. You act as if he inherited a roster full of 4 and 5 star recruits. The fastest player at the 2013 proday was our freaking punter! Michael Palardy was the fastest UT football player at Proday. That tells me all that I need to know about the state of TN football when Butch got here.

FTR, I read ALL of your asinine comments regarding "We are TN and WE should be winning by year 3" crap.

Bwhahaha a roster capable of going 5-7 in the SEC is the same as 1-11 in the PAC12.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

That's my point. But who's the better coach? I'd take Saban all day long. Just because you had success quickly doesn't make you better than a guy who didn't.

I'd say if Dantonio had equal talent as Saban it might be him. His results at MSU blow Saban's out of the stadium. I'd be very interested in seeing what he could do with top 5 talent.

 

[JC61]

Appreciate the civil discussion. Apologies for the snarky lol.

You make some good points that I agree with. It's often multiple factors, multiple variables that lead the titles. Need players AND coaching....I just think that the best coaches, the guys who are consistently at the top and with titles, are the ones who do both beautifully. So, while it's true that Florida and Bama are easiest to recruit to, not every coach wins at those schools. Also, it can be argued that Georgia is the best job in the SEC with the most fertile recruiting base, yet Richt has had very limited success getting to the SECCG and he's not sniffed a national title game. I just believe that had a Saban, a Spurrier, a Meyer, a Dantonio, Snyder or Shaw been at Georgia the last 15 years rather than Richt, that Georgia would have a few titles to show for the natural resources that surround them.

Anywho, let's hope Jones gets better and figures out the formula that the best of the best have mastered. I think he's almost there, but there's certainly a piece missing. Contrary to what many seem to think on here, even those of us who criticize aspects of his performance and his results badly war him to succeed at the very highest level.

I can really agree w/ the UGA and Richt points; while he has won many games he always seems to get in his own way in the years when he had all the pieces there to make a viable run...so, I do agree that most of the guys you mentioned probably would have won an NC or two with the same squads and schedules....but it's really hard to tell and sometimes it takes some "magic" or "luck" to seal the ultimate prize.

I probably agree with 80-90% of most points you throw in the mix KB...sometimes more. I really am not a full-fledged Jones apologist, nor do I think he's been without some duh-huh moments. I do, however, believe some of the late game collapses this year were due to inexperience and quality depth as well.

There might have been 1. 2 or more wins in the last 3 years with Saban, Meyer or Dantonio at the helm, but outside of those 3 I'm just not convinced that the other flavors of the day would have fared much better...and may have done worse without CBJ and staff's recruiting prowess.

I could very well be wrong, but I think Jones has the ability to go from good to great...and have written on here before, it may not be at UT. He does need to loosen up some and "trust" his players but he has other intangibles that are not easy to come by.

 

[Volgrad98]

Kiffin tarnished the image of UT it was a top ten to fifteen program it was prestigious and proud then a one year coach slaps us in the face and ran off like a thief in the night couple that with hambones "coaching search" and as the Japanese say we lost face

I don't think kiffin did anything to ruin the perception that Tennessee is a "top ten to fifteen program". While he suffered some bad losses, he did also beat the hell out of Georgia and took us to a bowl. Perception wise, his short comings on the field could be written off as first year growing pains so the Tennessee image was still relatively intact, even after his "thief in the night" exit.

However, it was the embarrassment of the dooley years that destroyed the image of Tennessee and ultimately took fanbase expectations to the cellar.

Yes I know dooley also took us to a bowl as well but we all know how that ended. Enter the "dooley rule".

 

[NashVol11]

Butch inherited an equally abysmal TN team. You act as if he inherited a roster full of 4 and 5 star recruits. The fastest player at the 2013 proday was our freaking punter! Michael Palardy was the fastest UT football player at Proday. That tells me all that I need to know about the state of TN football when Butch got here.

FTR, I read ALL of your asinine comments regarding "We are TN and WE should be winning by year 3" crap.

Equal to 1-11 Stanford?

Never go full retard

 

[NashVol11]

K, Then name coaches that won a natty by year 3 of being at a P5 school and didnt become a Bust. I think your forgetting CBJ is only in year 3 and has only been a HC for 9 years.

Off the top of my head, Stoops, Tressel, and Meyer. But there's so much wrong with this logic.

1. Not every P5 school is capable of winning a national championship. I'm not sure even half of them are.
2. Nowhere has anyone said you need to win a NC by year 3.
3. I've seen the bolded statement a few times now. What is your point with that? It's the coaches who win early who suck, and we should be glad Butch is improving slowly instead of quickly because that means he's better? I hope that's not it.

 

[Smokey123]

Off the top of my head, Stoops, Tressel, and Meyer. But there's so much wrong with this logic.

1. Not every P5 school is capable of winning a national championship. I'm not sure even half of them are.
2. Nowhere has anyone said you need to win a NC by year 3.
3. I've seen the bolded statement a few times now. What is your point with that? It's the coaches who win early who suck, and we should be glad Butch is improving slowly instead of quickly because that means he's better? I hope that's not it.

Well, I've seen someone post multiple times coaches win and turn programs around so quickly in this era. But you could only name 3 coaches to win a natty in their first 3 years... Butch is only in his 3rd year. Heck, there's probably not a lot of coaches that won 10+ their first 3 years that had to turn a program completely around.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Off the top of my head, Stoops, Tressel, and Meyer. But there's so much wrong with this logic.

1. Not every P5 school is capable of winning a national championship. I'm not sure even half of them are.
2. Nowhere has anyone said you need to win a NC by year 3.
3. I've seen the bolded statement a few times now. What is your point with that? It's the coaches who win early who suck, and we should be glad Butch is improving slowly instead of quickly because that means he's better? I hope that's not it.

What is your point anyways?

 

[KBVol]

Who believes everything Butch Jones says?

After this year? With all the comments about our youth and inexperience and his chart/analytics, etc, etc? And last year with his comments about Worley's injury prior to the Alabama game?....I don't believe a word he says about anything. Just have to understand his methods, that it's all scripted coach speak (on steroids) and doesn't mean much of anything. And I honestly don't care. Just win at this point.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

Equal to 1-11 Stanford?

Never go full retard

you should take your own advice. Have you ever considered that maybe there was some semblance of talent but Walt Harris was just a horrible coach. The same Walt Harris that has a career record of 69-85. While it may be easier to look at the record and say Stanford was WAAAAAY worse than TN, records don't always tell the full story. But of course you knew that....

 

[NashVol11]

Well, I've seen someone post multiple times coaches win and turn programs around so quickly in this era. But you could only name 3 coaches to win a natty in their first 3 years... Butch is only in his 3rd year. Heck, there's probably not a lot of coaches that won 10+ their first 3 years that had to turn a program completely around.

Yeah, John Blake and Galen Hall and Gerry DiNardo and Paul Hackett had just great programs. Coaches usually get fired when they've built championship programs that don't need to be turned around.

You know, Butch probably inherited the worst situation of all time, anywhere. 7 years probably isn't enough; we need to give him 12, because going from 5-7 to 8-4 is a downright miracle. Most coaches would still be losing to Vandy right now, amirite?

 

[NashVol11]

you should take your own advice. Have you ever considered that maybe there was some semblance of talent but Walt Harris was just a horrible coach. The same Walt Harris that has a career record of 69-85. While it may be easier to look at the record and say Stanford was WAAAAAY worse than TN, records don't always tell the full story. But of course you knew that....

Other factors like recruiting, facilities, resources, and recent and overall history that all favor Tennessee.

But yes, the bolded is probably true of Walt Harris and not Derek Dooley. Tennessee and its consistent top-20 recruiting classes was a team devoid of talent and winning games on Dooley's coaching, while Stanford and its 149th-ranked senior class was a sleeping giant loaded with talent.

I don't want to spend too much time on this, though, because this comparison has to be the dumbest thing posted on this board in the past month. I'm sure next you'll be saying that the situation Butch inherited was worse than post-death penalty SMU.

 

[jbr82]

Yeah, John Blake and Galen Hall and Gerry DiNardo and Paul Hackett had just great programs. Coaches usually get fired when they've built championship programs that don't need to be turned around.

You know, Butch probably inherited the worst situation of all time, anywhere. 7 years probably isn't enough; we need to give him 12, because going from 5-7 to 8-4 is a downright miracle. Most coaches would still be losing to Vandy right now, amirite?

Didnt James Franklin take over Vandy and go 9-4 in yr 2 & 3?

 

[NashVol11]

Didnt James Franklin take over Vandy and go 9-4 in yr 2 & 3?

Yeah, but they were only 2-10, and since Tennessee was equal to 1-11 Stanford, Butch inherited a worse situation. Lol

Just remember, when in doubt, Tennessee was worse. I know that may sound weird coming from Tennessee fans, but you gotta just roll with it.