Are there really 51 Power 5 coaches better than Butch?

#551
#551
KBVol said:
And apparently you can't understand what you read. You keep talking about Alabama being such a huge hurdle to getting to the SECCG....yet, last year, Alabama's thumping the crap out of us had little to nothing to do with us losing the SECe division.....losses to SCar and Vandy are what wrecked the season.

Yes playing Alabama every year is a potential disadvantage. But we can literally lose to them every single year and still win the East every single year. How about, for once, beat the other West team we play every year? Our season simply doesn't hinge on the Alabama game every year like so many are trying to argue.
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You lost me. You restated something that I never said. But keep twisting it.
 
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#552
#552
landscapingvol said:
Yes every team in the West does play them which evens out, everyone is the East does not with UT also drawing LSU a majority of the time over the last decade. And that is my point, UT has just had a bad luck of the draw which is beyond coach's control. That is one of the considerations when gauging CBJ's success.
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I think it always seems worse than it is.

-- In 2016, we played A&M (and Bama). A&M ended the year tied with Mississippi State for 5th-best (aka, 2nd-worst) in the West. Far from top two in the division with Bama, though it felt a bit like it when we played them (they were undefeated at the time, just like us).

-- In 2015, we played Arkansas (and Bama). Arky was tied with LSU for 3rd in the West, behind Bama and Ole Miss.

-- In 2014, we played Ole Miss, who were in fact ranked #3 in the country when we played them. But they ended that season 3rd-best in the West.

-- In 2013, we played Auburn. This is THE year we in fact did play the two best teams in the West. Auburn won the West, and Bama came in 2nd.

-- In 2012, we played Miss State, who were smack dab in the middle of their division, at 4th.

-- Prior to 2012 (prior to the expansion that brought A&M and Mizzou to the SEC), we played half the teams from the West each year, so I'll stop here.

Bottom line is, while I agree with you that it always FEELS like we're taking on the two best teams from the west, that has actually only been true once since the SEC's expansion to 14 teams.

Go Vols!
 
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#553
#553
sjt18 said:
Yeah. It is. USCe had a couple of star guys including Clowney but were not extraordinarily talented out of those few. Their main advantage was having one of the greatest college HC's on the sideline.

He knew how to use talent and how to cover up deficiencies.... Jones just complains about what he doesn't have.
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Clowney, Brandon Shell, Corey Robinson, Jerell Adams, Rory Anderson, Bruce Ellington, Pharoh Cooper, and Mike Davis were all drafted in the NFL. Others like Kelcy Quarles and Conner Shaw have played in NFL games.

I wonder how that stacks up against one of the worst UT rosters in the last 25 years.
 
#554
#554
VFL-82-JP said:
I think it always seems worse than it is.

-- In 2016, we played A&M (and Bama). A&M ended the year tied with Mississippi State for 5th-best (aka, 2nd-worst) in the West. Far from top two in the division with Bama, though it felt a bit like it when we played them (they were undefeated at the time, just like us).

-- In 2015, we played Arkansas (and Bama). Arky was tied with LSU for 3rd in the West, behind Bama and Ole Miss.

-- In 2014, we played Ole Miss, who were in fact ranked #3 in the country when we played them. But they ended that season 3rd-best in the West.

-- In 2013, we played Auburn. This is THE year we in fact did play the two best teams in the West. Auburn won the West, and Bama came in 2nd.

-- In 2012, we played Miss State, who were smack dab in the middle of their division, at 4th.

-- Prior to 2012 (prior to the expansion that brought A&M and Mizzou to the SEC), we played half the teams from the West each year, so I'll stop here.

Bottom line is, while I agree with you that it always FEELS like we're taking on the two best teams from the west, that has actually only been true once since the SEC's expansion to 14 teams.

Go Vols!
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Slight correction, A&M was 4th last year. We have played 2 of the top 4 teams in the west all 4 years under CBJ. As you say in three of those years, we played 2 of the top 3 teams.
 
#555
#555
landscapingvol said:
Yes every team in the West does play them which evens out, everyone is the East does not with UT also drawing LSU a majority of the time over the last decade. And that is my point, UT has just had a bad luck of the draw which is beyond coach's control. That is one of the considerations when gauging CBJ's success.
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hm.

we've played them twice in the regular season in the last decade. and that was the home/home rotation 2010/2011 before the addition of aTm and MO in 2012.

the only other time was the 2007 SEC title game....
 
#556
#556
VFL-82-JP said:
I think it always seems worse than it is.

-- In 2016, we played A&M (and Bama). A&M was tied with Mississippi State for 5th-best in the West. Far from 2nd behind Bama, though it felt a bit like it when we played them (they were undefeated at the time, just like us).

-- In 2015, we played Arkansas (and Bama). Arky was tied with LSU for 3rd in the West, behind Bama and Ole Miss.

-- In 2014, we played Ole Miss, who were in fact ranked #3 in the country when we played them. But they ended that season 3rd-best in the West.

-- In 2013, we played Auburn. This is THE year we in fact did play the two best teams in the West. Auburn won the West, and Bama came in 2nd.

-- In 2012, we played Miss State, who were smack dab in the middle of their division, at 4th.

-- Prior to 2012 (prior to the expansion that brought A&M and Mizzou to the SEC), we played half the teams from the West each year, so I'll stop here.

Bottom line is, while I agree with you that it always FEELS like we're taking on the two best teams from the west, that has actually only been true once since the SEC's last expansion to 14 teams.

Go Vols!
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Since 2006 which was the last time UT beat Alabama UT has played LSU as one of it's other or the other opponent from the West 5 times. While it sounds good to say an opponent is the 3rd or 4th best team in the West. Overall UT hasn't drawn an opponent with fewer than 8 wins from the West since 2008. That is pretty remarkable. On the flip side UGA, has drawn 7 opponents in that time span from the West with fewer than 8 wins and 5 with few than 5 total wins. That is a decided advantage especially when you consider UT has also played Oregon and Oklahoma twice not to mention Va Tech in that same time span OOC. No one is crying about it but it is what it is.
 
#557
#557
landscapingvol said:
Since 2006 which was the last time UT beat Alabama UT has played LSU as one of it's other or the other opponent from the West 5 times. While it sounds good to say an opponent is the 3rd or 4th best team in the West. Overall UT hasn't drawn an opponent with fewer than 8 wins from the West since 2008. That is pretty remarkable. On the flip side UGA, has drawn 7 opponents in that time span from the West with fewer than 8 wins and 5 with few than 5 total wins. That is a decided advantage especially when you consider UT has also played Oregon and Oklahoma twice not to mention Va Tech in that same time span OOC. No one is crying about it but it is what it is.
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no, they haven't. and one of those was the SEC title game. not a "draw" to keep tennessee down.
http://www.winsipedia.com/games/tennessee/vs/lsu
yes, you are.
 
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#558
#558
Well, Landscaping, you gotta be fair here. From 2011 on back, we played half of all the teams in the West, every year. Bama, and two of the other five. So we were playing ALL the West teams far more frequently back then (there were fewer of them, and we played 3 rather than 2 games with them each season).

Fact is, we haven't played LSU yet, since the expansion. They're the LAST team we'll have gotten from the rotation of the West in our schedule.

As for us often/usually playing one of the better teams from the West, compared to the East over the past half-decade, they've ALL been one of the better teams. Since expansion, EVERY season has seen all but one or two of the West teams end up with 8 or more wins.

So it would be hard for us NOT to get teams from the West who end the season at that mark, most years. Know what I mean?

Bottom line is, the West has been better than the East since 2009. Until we reestablish parity by beating them more often, it'll always seem like we're fighting uphill. No matter which of them we play.

Go Vols!
 
#559
#559
VFL-82-JP said:
Well, Landscaping, you gotta be fair here. From 2011 on back, we played half of all the teams in the West, every year. Bama, and two of the other five. So we were playing ALL the West teams far more frequently back then (there were fewer of them, and we played 3 rather than 2 games with them each season).

Fact is, we haven't played LSU yet, since the expansion. They're the LAST team we'll have gotten from the rotation of the West in our schedule.

As for us often/usually playing one of the better teams from the West, compared to the East over the past half-decade, they've ALL been one of the better teams. Since expansion, EVERY season has seen all but one or two of the West teams end up with 8 or more wins.

So it would be hard for us NOT to get teams from the West who end the season at that mark, most years. Know what I mean?

Bottom line is, the West has been better than the East since 2009. Until we reestablish parity by beating them more often, it'll always seem like we're fighting uphill. No matter which of them we play.

Go Vols!
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exactly.
 
#561
#561
landscapingvol said:
You seem to be bent out of shape about it, not me boy wonder.
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just calling it like i see it.

you still haven't answered any of my previous questions.

you're completely wrong on your assertion about LSU.

and you've consistently played the "it's not fair" card with your "emotional and physical tolls" comments.

but by all means, keep going. you're my entertainment for the afternoon.
 
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#562
#562
VFL-82-JP said:
Well, Landscaping, you gotta be fair here. From 2011 on back, we played half of all the teams in the West, every year. Bama, and two of the other five. So we were playing ALL the West teams far more frequently back then (there were fewer of them, and we played 3 rather than 2 games with them each season).

Fact is, we haven't played LSU yet, since the expansion. They're the LAST team we'll have gotten from the rotation of the West in our schedule.

As for us often/usually playing one of the better teams from the West, compared to the East over the past half-decade, they've ALL been one of the better teams. Since expansion, EVERY season has seen all but one or two of the West teams end up with 8 or more wins.

So it would be hard for us NOT to get teams from the West who end the season at that mark, most years. Know what I mean?

Bottom line is, the West has been better than the East since 2009. Until we reestablish parity by beating them more often, it'll always seem like we're fighting uphill. No matter which of them we play.

Go Vols!
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I don't believe men in black suits are plotting against us nor do I believe the SEC is plotting. It's just been bad luck with scheduling and poor play by us. We have let several games get away that we had chances to win in that span I won't dispute that; Arkansas a couple times and Texas A & M come to mind. Just my opinion, I won't dispute other's opinions.
 
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#563
#563
VolGee4 said:
Slight correction, A&M was 4th last year. We have played 2 of the top 4 teams in the west all 4 years under CBJ. As you say in three of those years, we played 2 of the top 3 teams.
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Oops, yep, you're right. My bad, sorry. Thanks for the correction.

Oh, and keep in mind the "chicken and egg" aspect of this perspective. If we'd win more often against the West, the teams we play would end the season lower ... and we wouldn't be playing top-half-of-the-West teams every year. The very fact that we've been down makes our opponents seem stronger in their own division.

So let's get better, and they'll comparatively be worse. It just works that way. :)
 
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#564
#564
jakez4ut said:
just calling it like i see it.

you still haven't answered any of my previous questions.

you're completely wrong on your assertion about LSU.

and you've consistently played the "it's not fair" card with your "emotional and physical tolls" comments.

but by all means, keep going. you're my entertainment for the afternoon.
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I am your entertainment?? :popcorn: Excellent
 
#566
#566
jakez4ut said:
just calling it like i see it.

you still haven't answered any of my previous questions.

you're completely wrong on your assertion about LSU.

and you've consistently played the "it's not fair" card with your "emotional and physical tolls" comments.

but by all means, keep going. you're my entertainment for the afternoon.
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Take a ticket.
 
#568
#568
VFL-82-JP said:
Oops, yep, you're right. My bad, sorry. Thanks for the correction.

Oh, and keep in mind the "chicken and egg" aspect of this perspective. If we'd win more often against the West, the teams we play would end the season lower ... and we wouldn't be playing top-half-of-the-West teams every year. The very fact that we've been down makes our opponents seem stronger in their own division.

So let's get better, and they'll comparatively be worse. It just works that way. :)
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Yea, I get that. I was just stating the correct standings. However, UGA has played the last place team in the west the last 3 years and actually lost to one of them. The luck has to go our way at some point.
 
#569
#569
VolGee4 said:
Yea, I get that. I was just stating the correct standings. However, UGA has played the last place team in the west the last 3 years and actually lost to one of them. The luck has to go our way at some point.
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if we're comparing schedules, i have no problem agreeing UGA has definitely had the easiest path of late.

except the can't beat us apparently.:)
 
#570
#570
VolGee4 said:
Clowney, Brandon Shell, Corey Robinson, Jerell Adams, Rory Anderson, Bruce Ellington, Pharoh Cooper, and Mike Davis were all drafted in the NFL. Others like Kelcy Quarles and Conner Shaw have played in NFL games.

I wonder how that stacks up against one of the worst UT rosters in the last 25 years.
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Those 8 were drafted over a 3 year period, correct?

And you didn't talk about the 2* fillers around those guys.
 
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#572
#572
sjt18 said:
Those 8 were drafted over a 3 year period, correct?

And you didn't talk about the 2* fillers around those guys.
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I am not sure why it matters when they were drafted because we only had 4 players drafted altogether from that team. Two are Dobbs and JRM who didn't play. Sutton was a true freshman. The other was a 6th rounder.

Secondary:
TJ Gurley- 3 star
Chaz Elder- 4 star
Brison Williams- 3 star
Kadetrix Marcus-?
Victor Hampton- 4 star
Jimmy Legree- 3 star
Ahmad Christian- 3 star (transferred)
Rico McWilliams- 3 star
Sharrod Golightly- 3 star

Front 7:
Chaz Sutton- 3 star
JT Suratt- 3 star
Kelcy Quarles- prep school
Kaiwan Lewis- 4 star
Cedric Cooper- 3 star
TJ Holloman- 3 star
Darius English- 4 star
Marcquis Roberts- 3 star

OL:
AJ Cann- 4 star
Cody Waldrop- 3 star
Ronald Patrick- 3 star

WR:
Damiere Byrd- 4 star
Shaq Roland- 4 star
KJ Brent- 3 star
Nick Jones- 3 star

RB:
Brandon Wilds- 3 star

Not all 2 stars. But, whatever you believe.
 
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#573
#573
VolGee4 said:
I am not sure why it matters when they were drafted because we only had 4 players drafted altogether from that team. Two are Dobbs and JRM who didn't play. Sutton was a true freshman. The other was a 6th rounder.

Secondary:
TJ Gurley- 3 star
Chaz Elder- 4 star
Brison Williams- 3 star
Kadetrix Marcus-?
Victor Hampton- 4 star
Jimmy Legree- 3 star
Ahmad Christian- 3 star (transferred)
Rico McWilliams- 3 star
Sharrod Golightly- 3 star

Front 7:
Chaz Sutton- 3 star
JT Suratt- 3 star
Kelcy Quarles- prep school
Kaiwan Lewis- 4 star
Cedric Cooper- 3 star
TJ Holloman- 3 star
Darius English- 4 star
Marcquis Roberts- 3 star

OL:
AJ Cann- 4 star
Cody Waldrop- 3 star
Ronald Patrick- 3 star

WR:
Damiere Byrd- 4 star
Shaq Roland- 4 star
KJ Brent- 3 star
Nick Jones- 3 star

RB:
Brandon Wilds- 3 star

Not all 2 stars. But, whatever you believe.
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:lolabove: Counts trees... ignores the forest.

USCe wasn't an overwhelmingly talented team that year. They had several close games against bad teams and lost to UT who wasn't a good team.

Spurrier simply knew how to win even when he didn't have all of the advantages. But... whatever you want to believe.


Let's put it this way. The USCe team last year that Muschamp led to victory over Jones was less talented than that UT team. UT's team in '16 had considerably more depth of talent than the earlier USCe team.

If you want to call that one game a genuine upset... then I won't spend any more time arguing that. Problem is... that's the only one standing against several bad losses.
 
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#575
#575
Longsufferingvol said:
Plus Brett beat Butch head to head. Not sure how someone could argue Butch is a better coach.
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BB catches a lot of crap but going to Arky with the recent climate of the West is tough. He hasn't killed it but there are a lot of coaches that would struggle in that division at that school.
 
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