Adams article

#201
#201
I'd say it's kind of difficult to judge some of the kids' characters when you're recruiting them because you don't really get to know them until they're committed and you start seeing them at practice. Many kids probably don't have a criminal record or any other sign that would suggest they "probably" won't do right, except for their academic scores, whic only suggests that they may or may not be suitable for school. Sometimes, I think it's an anomoly. The only real true way to judge these things is to look at other programs. Some of them are having the same problems. Tommy Tubberville is one of the few that hasn't had any. Hundreds of kids, some are going to be black sheep. Is 6 too many? How was our team's discipline in the '70's, '80's and '90's compared to now? Why is that? There are many questions to study.
 
#202
#202
rexvol said:
8 years of working in residential substance abuse treatment helps a little. I only know what's reported by the media, but that seems to be enough to call for a dismissal, imo.
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In other words....nothing. You are making a conclusion based on your own assumptions and opinions.
 
#203
#203
so admitting he's made mistakes in the past absolves Phil from the responsibility of making one right now?
 
#204
#204
utvolpj said:
I don't claim a holier than thou stance



like this?
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and how have I claimed a holier than thou stance? please show me. You're the one that brought my calling into it. I just said Phil's made a mistake. How am I holier than thou. Some of you guys think a pastor cant have a strong opinion about something. If we do, then "we dont have the love of Jesus" or "you judging someone". Give me a break.

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

IMO, this Scripture is saying do not be a hypocrite. Dont call someone out for something while you are guilty of the same sin. Actually, I retract everything I've said regarding this situation. I was wrong, it's Phil's decision to make. I was completely wrong to comment on this in this regard. I dont know the young man or his family. I was wrong.
 
#205
#205
volmanbill said:
In other words....nothing. You are making a conclusion based on your own assumptions and opinions.
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what gives anyone the right to have any opinion about anything on here? Bill, you just want to argue. let's face it, this is an internet message board, no one here is qualified to comment on anything. So I guess I have to work on the coaching staff before I can comment on the play calls?
 
#206
#206
I'll be nice and say you can throw bible verses all day long and it still won't convince me.

Non-judgemental?

rexvol said:
didnt say that. Phil said his job is to mentor the players, if that's true, then he didnt have much effect on TH, so he failed as a mentor. Unless he was mentoring him to be an absentee deadbeat father.
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#207
#207
utvolpj said:
I'll be nice and say you can throw bible verses all day long and it still won't convince me.

Non-judgemental?
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I didnt say I was non-judgemental. I am very judgemental, wrong is wrong and right is right. I dont have any problem saying TH is wrong for not paying child support. You think it's wrong to point that out? I think it's only wrong to point out someone's sin of you are committing the same sin. I think that as a pastor, I have a moral and spiritual obligation to call certain behaviors wrong.
 
#208
#208
utvolpj said:
I'll be nice and say you can throw bible verses all day long and it still won't convince me.

Non-judgemental?
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and did you read my whole post. I admitted that I was wrong in commenting on Phil's decision with regard to BC. PJ, you've never admitted you were wrong about anything, period.
 
#209
#209
rexvol said:
what gives anyone the right to have any opinion about anything on here? Bill, you just want to argue. let's face it, this is an internet message board, no one here is qualified to comment on anything. So I guess I have to work on the coaching staff before I can comment on the play calls?
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No, but I do have a problem with someone spouting off opinions as if they are speaking the Gospel.
 
#210
#210
rexvol said:
and did you read my whole post. I admitted that I was wrong in commenting on Phil's decision with regard to BC. PJ, you've never admitted you were wrong about anything, period.
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of course I have and do every day. I also try not to speak in absolutes to avoid leaving my ass hanging out there in the wind.
 
#211
#211
volmanbill said:
No, but I do have a problem with someone spouting off opinions as if they are speaking the Gospel.
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then what are you doing on an internet message board. You also might want to look up the definition of the word hypocrite because you spout off as much as anyone around here.
 
#215
#215
Imo Fulmer would have been better off had he not replied. This has now garnered national attention and can be found on several major sports websites. ESPN, Foxsports, Sportline, CNNSI all have articles covering this. And more national attention to Tennessee's off-field incidents is the last thing I'd think Fulmer or the university wants. Especially when it's a head coaching lashing out at critics of team discipline.

It just looks bad imo.
 
#216
#216
I think Rex actually has a pretty good point. If Fulmer's going to claim that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," with a responsibility to mold young men, then that suddenly does make guys like Little, Goodrich, and Henry fair game. If Fulmer's main job is to teach character, then how come somebody like Travis Henry can be in his charge for four years and still not learn something as basic as that your children are more important than jewelry?

(Note that I do NOT think that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," and so therefore I don't think you can blame him for what former players do. But the stance Fulmer's taken opens him up to that sort of criticism, IMO.)
 
#217
#217
Vercingetorix said:
I think Rex actually has a pretty good point. If Fulmer's going to claim that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," with a responsibility to mold young men, then that suddenly does make guys like Little, Goodrich, and Henry fair game. If Fulmer's main job is to teach character, then how come somebody like Travis Henry can be in his charge for four years and still not learn something as basic as that your children are more important than jewelry?

(Note that I do NOT think that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," and so therefore I don't think you can blame him for what former players do. But the stance Fulmer's taken opens him up to that sort of criticism, IMO.)
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While I agree with Adams argument, that portion didn't really seem to fit well and he should have left it out imo. I'm not going to hold a coach accountable for what a player does after he leaves the university. The player is beyond the coach's sphere of influence at that point.

All I think anyone could ask is to keep them out of trouble while at Tennessee.
 
#218
#218
Vercingetorix said:
I think Rex actually has a pretty good point. If Fulmer's going to claim that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," with a responsibility to mold young men, then that suddenly does make guys like Little, Goodrich, and Henry fair game. If Fulmer's main job is to teach character, then how come somebody like Travis Henry can be in his charge for four years and still not learn something as basic as that your children are more important than jewelry?

(Note that I do NOT think that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," and so therefore I don't think you can blame him for what former players do. But the stance Fulmer's taken opens him up to that sort of criticism, IMO.)
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if that's the case then no one can be upset when Fulmer presents the other side of the story and puts his success stories on the table as well. the only thing i'll say in defense of him on this is that Lord knows no one ever writes an article about the ones that were success stories.
 
#219
#219
Vercingetorix said:
I think Rex actually has a pretty good point. If Fulmer's going to claim that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," with a responsibility to mold young men, then that suddenly does make guys like Little, Goodrich, and Henry fair game. If Fulmer's main job is to teach character, then how come somebody like Travis Henry can be in his charge for four years and still not learn something as basic as that your children are more important than jewelry?

(Note that I do NOT think that his first job is as an "educator and mentor," and so therefore I don't think you can blame him for what former players do. But the stance Fulmer's taken opens him up to that sort of criticism, IMO.)
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exactly my point. why is it that I get villified and you dont?
 
#223
#223
jakez4ut said:
if that's the case then no one can be upset when Fulmer presents the other side of the story and puts his success stories on the table as well. the only thing i'll say in defense of him on this is that Lord knows no one ever writes an article about the ones that were success stories.
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I just don't think Fulmer can have it both ways. If his "first job" is to be mentor to these guys and help them learn to be responsible adults.....well, then, he's doing his job so well that we've had FOURTEEN players suspended for grades, arrested, or kicked off the team for drugs since we played in the SECCG. He's doing it so well that we've had several highly publicized alumni of his character training kill people, run out on child support, etc. He's doing it so well that the freaking Fulmer Cup is named after him.

But if his first job is NOT to be a mentor to these guys and help develop their characters -- and I don't think it is -- then he needs to cut the crap about "mixing tough love and encouragement" and instill some freaking discipline on the team. Either way, he's failing.
 
#224
#224
Vercingetorix said:
I just don't think Fulmer can have it both ways. If his "first job" is to be mentor to these guys and help them learn to be responsible adults.....well, then, he's doing his job so well that we've had FOURTEEN players suspended for grades, arrested, or kicked off the team for drugs since we played in the SECCG. He's doing it so well that we've had several highly publicized alumni of his character training kill people, run out on child support, etc. He's doing it so well that the freaking Fulmer Cup is named after him.

But if his first job is NOT to be a mentor to these guys and help develop their characters -- and I don't think it is -- then he needs to cut the crap about "mixing tough love and encouragement" and instill some freaking discipline on the team. Either way, he's failing.
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we once had a dog that we trained and trained to be a hunter. He was so good in the backyard. Then he got let loose in the open field and had no clue what to do out there. The point is that once these guys are out of the confines of the UT program it's up to them to use what they've learned. To put the actions of a man, who hasn't been on campus in 3+ years, on his college coach is ludicrous.

And the Fulmer Cup was named by a gator blog. It truly means less than nothing
 
#225
#225
Vercingetorix said:
I just don't think Fulmer can have it both ways. If his "first job" is to be mentor to these guys and help them learn to be responsible adults.....well, then, he's doing his job so well that we've had FOURTEEN players suspended for grades, arrested, or kicked off the team for drugs since we played in the SECCG. He's doing it so well that we've had several highly publicized alumni of his character training kill people, run out on child support, etc. He's doing it so well that the freaking Fulmer Cup is named after him.

But if his first job is NOT to be a mentor to these guys and help develop their characters -- and I don't think it is -- then he needs to cut the crap about "mixing tough love and encouragement" and instill some freaking discipline on the team. Either way, he's failing.
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i'm going to sound like a fulmer apologist, but at this point, i guess that's ok.

i would agree with you 100% if he was claiming that he was always successfull at what he describes his job to be.

he didn't. he only stated that was what he viewed his primary job to be. Also understanding that in the long run, he has very little control on how these kids actually turn out in the end, he obviously acknowledged that he hasn't always been successful in this venture.

what i take issue with, in this specific circumstance--the accusation and rebutle--is how some people are shocked and dismayed that Fulmer has the gaul to speak of when there have been success stories, with no reservation made for the fact that the one doing the accusing made a one sided judgement. And when that one sided judgement happens to include examples of grown men no longer officially affiliated with Fulmer or the program, the response to show the success story for the same circumstance should not be met with as much venom as it has been.

now, it can be debeated all day long whether or not he is too soft, or whether or not the rebutle was a sign of weakness etc.....but i for one have no problem with Fulmer coming out, in direct response to this, and basicallly saying "hey, wait a minute, while it's not exactly a secret about our failures, but you know, we have had a few successes as well, for instance.......".

let's be realistic, no one EVER hears about those. we all know the well chronicled history of every single transgression that dots our now infamous police blotter.

i guess i'd get a little pissed off too if i were in the same shoes.
 
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