The divide in this country is growing, and is alarming

#202
#202
Just throwing this out there: If you don't believe demographics, proportions, and ratios don't matter, I encourage you to study up on how Congressional representation is calculated.

Demographics matter.

Also, think of it this way (this is a hypothetical because it's bad everywhere right now): If California has 1 million people unemployed people vs Oregon's 500,000 unemployed, which state is in worse shape? California has approx 37 million in total pop, Oregon 3.8 million.

Now replace California with "whites" and Oregon with "minorities".

Ratios matter.
 
#203
#203
lawgator1 said:
Huh?

There is a difference between being lazy and giving up.
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there is? giving up is the very definition of being lazy.

Definition of LAZY
1a : disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b : encouraging inactivity or indolence <a lazy summer day>
2: moving slowly : sluggish
3: droopy, lax <a rabbit with lazy ears>
4: placed on its side <lazy E livestock brand>
 
#204
#204
lawgator1 said:
Wow, you find one lady from 15 years ago who had a daughter who had this issue and you generalize that the problem is black culture, itself?
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This isn't a problem that I dreamed up. This has been lamented by black leaders from across the spectrum.

You are definitely one of the ones in the hard right that is pure racist.
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You are completely and totally ignorant of and detached from reality. I am racist because I want the best for everyone regardless of their color? I am racist because I am honest about one of the facets that hold talented young black people back? I am racist because I love people and do not want to see them continue obviously self destructive behaviors? I am racist because I oppose programs that have demonstrably hurt a VERY large segment of the black community?

If so... then call me what you want. I sleep well at night harboring no ill will toward anyone because of their race.
 
#205
#205
hndog609 said:
I see, so are 30 million whites in poverty more or less of a burden on the rest of us (from a taxpayers perspective) than 30 million from other ethnicities? It's a serious question.
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Well, in the context of this thread and subject matter being discussed, it doesn't matter. We're discussing the divide between caucasians and minorities. I'm framing my response in that context.

My personal opinion is that poor folks are poor folks. However, there are distinct cultural differences between whites and blacks, and a black child is much more likely to born into poverty than a white child. Mind you, I don't blame whites for this. I just want to work towards a solution that reduces the entitlement burden on this country which we can all agree is something that is needed.
 
#206
#206
sjt18 said:
This isn't a problem that I dreamed up. This has been lamented by black leaders from across the spectrum.



You are completely and totally ignorant of and detached from reality. I am racist because I want the best for everyone regardless of their color? I am racist because I am honest about one of the facets that hold talented young black people back? I am racist because I love people and do not want to see them continue obviously self destructive behaviors? I am racist because I oppose programs that have demonstrably hurt a VERY large segment of the black community?

If so... then call me what you want. I sleep well at night harboring no ill will toward anyone because of their race.
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You may not harbor ill will towards them because of their race, but you assume a lot of inherent qualities or characteristics based on it.
 
#207
#207
droski said:
there is? giving up is the very definition of being lazy.

Definition of LAZY
1a : disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b : encouraging inactivity or indolence <a lazy summer day>
2: moving slowly : sluggish
3: droopy, lax <a rabbit with lazy ears>
4: placed on its side <lazy E livestock brand>
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I hate to disagree with you, but there is a difference.

The term "giving up" implies that there was motivation to begin with.
 
#208
#208
HSVol said:
Well, in the context of this thread and subject matter being discussed, it doesn't matter. We're discussing the divide between caucasians and minorities. I'm framing my response in that context.

My personal opinion is that poor folks are poor folks. However, there are distinct cultural differences between whites and blacks, and a black child is much more likely to born into poverty than a white child. Mind you, I don't blame whites for this. I just want to work towards a solution that reduces the entitlement burden on this country which we can all agree is something that is needed.
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I agree that we have no choice but to reduce entitlement spending. What I cannot agree to, however, is doing it in such a manner as places the burden on a part of society that you simply set backwards another few decades whilst simultaneously leaving in tact the wealth of those who benefited (or suffered far less, anyway) during the downturn.

The poor do not have advocates like the wealthy do. And despite the fact that the wealthy are far fewer in number, they get their way far more frequently, because they have the wherewithal to control things.
 
#210
#210
lawgator1 said:
I agree that we have no choice but to reduce entitlement spending. What I cannot agree to, however, is doing it in such a manner as places the burden on a part of society that you simply set backwards another few decades whilst simultaneously leaving in tact the wealth of those who benefited (or suffered far less, anyway) during the downturn.

The poor do not have advocates like the wealthy do. And despite the fact that the wealthy are far fewer in number, they get their way far more frequently, because they have the wherewithal to control things.
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I have a question for you, sir. This might be ignorance, but I don't know ANYONE that has come out and said, "Welfare helped me get out of poverty." More often than not I hear, "I need more welfare."

Am I wrong here, or does welfare increase dependence on government assistance? If there are isolated success stories, good for them. However, where are the statistics that illustrate that welfare and other entitlement programs are helping people break the cycle of poverty?

This is the biggest question I want answered by the Left.
 
#211
#211
droski said:
you mean like a whole race "giving up?"
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I didn't say that, at all. In fact, I would say the opposite.

But sjt talks about one lady from 15 years ago with a daughter who felt rejected in the black community because she valued education.

Now, either you think that is something inherent in black people, or you think that the attitude towards that one young woman was caused by something artificial.

Which is it?
 
#212
#212
HSVol said:
Just throwing this out there: If you don't believe demographics, proportions, and ratios don't matter, I encourage you to study up on how Congressional representation is calculated.

Demographics matter.

Also, think of it this way (this is a hypothetical because it's bad everywhere right now): If California has 1 million people unemployed people vs Oregon's 500,000 unemployed, which state is in worse shape? California has approx 37 million in total pop, Oregon 3.8 million.

Now replace California with "whites" and Oregon with "minorities".

Ratios matter.
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I'm assuming this was meant for me.

I'm in no was discounting ratios, I'm saying that ratios/proportions be damned this idea (held by anyone on either side for whatever reason) that there aren't plenty of whites living in poverty and areas of poor education is at best flatly erroneous and at worst intentionally downplayed.
 
#213
#213
We need to answer these questions:

Does welfare work?
What are we doing to get people off of welfare?
How is welfare helping prevent future poverty?
 
#215
#215
HSVol said:
I have a question for you, sir. This might be ignorance, but I don't know ANYONE that has come out and said, "Welfare helped me get out of poverty." More often than not I hear, "I need more welfare."

Am I wrong here, or does welfare increase dependence on government assistance? If there are isolated success stories, good for them. However, where are the statistics that illustrate that welfare and other entitlement programs are helping people break the cycle of poverty?

This is the biggest question I want answered by the Left.
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I don't know that welfare "causes" anything. I just find it hard to believe that there are tens of millions of people who would choose to remain in poverty and live on public assistance if there was a meaningful opportunity instead.

We can debate what a "meaningful opportunity" is. But if someone makes the choice to live in poverty -- which is what your comment implies -- then I think you need to ask yourself why and also ask why is it that you think they actually have a choice.
 
#216
#216
lawgator1 said:
There is a lack of interest in it in part I think because of the perception that there is no opportunity, even for the better educated.
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Why is that? Is it because of businesses and the dirty "rich" whose companies are STARVING for intelligent and motivated people? Or could it be because those with an interest in keeping blacks dependent on them politically are reinforcing something that isn't true?
Plus as has been pointed out there is surely less parental involvement in some families more so than others. That's a function of a lot of things, chief among them being poverty and distrust, skepticism, single parent situations, etc.
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So it is the fault of intact white families that way too many black children grow up in single parent homes? It is the fault of whites generally as they just go about minding their own business that blacks harbor distrust?
 
#217
#217
lawgator1 said:
I don't know that welfare "causes" anything. I just find it hard to believe that there are tens of millions of people who would choose to remain in poverty and live on public assistance if there was a meaningful opportunity instead.

We can debate what a "meaningful opportunity" is. But if someone makes the choice to live in poverty -- which is what your comment implies -- then I think you need to ask yourself why and also ask why is it that you think they actually have a choice.
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because it's the easy route to sit and collect welfare. going to college, working hard, that's not easy. don't tell me you wouldn't think about retiring if someone offered you a paycheck to do nothing. and yes there is an attitude for a lot of poor people (not just black) that the man will keep you down and that they are owed something.
 
#218
#218
lawgator1 said:
I don't know that welfare "causes" anything. I just find it hard to believe that there are tens of millions of people who would choose to remain in poverty and live on public assistance if there was a meaningful opportunity instead.

We can debate what a "meaningful opportunity" is. But if someone makes the choice to live in poverty -- which is what your comment implies -- then I think you need to ask yourself why and also ask why is it that you think they actually have a choice.
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Don't be so carried away with "choose". If I exercised harder than I do now I'd probably be in better shape physically. I don't have to. Frankly I don't want to and I'm "mostly" content with where I'm at now.

Some people are absolutely content with where they're at if they don't have to work hard for it. That's a fact that runs across a lot more ground than the purpose of this thread. There are 35yo out there delivering pizza and will honest-to-God tell you how cool they think it is.
 
#219
#219
lawgator1 said:
You may not harbor ill will towards them because of their race, but you assume a lot of inherent qualities or characteristics based on it.
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No I don't. Not even remotely close to that.

I give people the benefit of the doubt regardless of their race. Period.

If you knew anything whatsoever about my life and experiences you would be embarrassed by how completely ludicrous your accusations and assumptions are.
 
#220
#220
lawgator1 said:
I don't know that welfare "causes" anything. I just find it hard to believe that there are tens of millions of people who would choose to remain in poverty and live on public assistance if there was a meaningful opportunity instead.

We can debate what a "meaningful opportunity" is. But if someone makes the choice to live in poverty -- which is what your comment implies -- then I think you need to ask yourself why and also ask why is it that you think they actually have a choice.
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They don't have a choice?

I would argue that well-educated, intelligent African Americans are much more likely to be given a job than their white counterparts. Why? There are a number of reasons, but if two candidates interview equally well for a position, the minority gets hired 9 out of 10 times.
 
#221
#221
droski said:
because it's the easy route to sit and collect welfare. going to college, working hard, that's not easy. don't tell me you wouldn't think about retiring if someone offered you a paycheck to do nothing. and yes there is an attitude for a lot of poor people (not just black) that the man will keep you down and that they are owed something.
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This is a really good line of thinking.

Here's the problem with welfare:

Those who grow up in it don't know any different. That's just the way they live. They don't have any qualms scaping by and living their life because that's the way it's always been for them. They get used to it. That's their standard of living and sure, they'd like to live in a big house and have a lot of money in their pocket. But is it worth the effort when they grow up in those conditions and become socialized in that environment?

Entitlement programs make things worse, not better. They ensure the cycle continues, so if that's the man keeping the poor down, then yes. I agree.
 
#222
#222
lawgator1 said:
I don't know that welfare "causes" anything. I just find it hard to believe that there are tens of millions of people who would choose to remain in poverty and live on public assistance if there was a meaningful opportunity instead.

We can debate what a "meaningful opportunity" is. But if someone makes the choice to live in poverty -- which is what your comment implies -- then I think you need to ask yourself why and also ask why is it that you think they actually have a choice.
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Spend about three days in Eastern KY and you will understand. It is filled with 3 generations of the same family living completely off of entitlements.
 
#223
#223
droski said:
because it's the easy route to sit and collect welfare. going to college, working hard, that's not easy. don't tell me you wouldn't think about retiring if someone offered you a paycheck to do nothing. and yes there is an attitude for a lot of poor people (not just black) that the man will keep you down and that they are owed something.
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Not only that but if you go out and take responsibility for yourself in the world... you won't be treated fairly. Excuses will get you nothing but failure. You'll get knocked down and stomped multiple times. You'll have to deal with the simple fact that life isn't always "fair". You will have to work hard sometimes for years before you see the benefits you expect. You will have to deny yourself things that you may want to do- drugs, alcohol, partying, promiscuity, etc.

I have relatives who are EXACTLY like you describe. Growing up in the southern Appalachians I saw many more that did... mostly whites and Cherokees.

IF you ever wanted a case study of why liberal social programs do not work... visit an Indian reservation. For generations they were given what they needed to live... It destroyed their souls and culture. It left them with a "culture" where work is not valued. It left them hopeless. Some can see beyond it and escape. Many if not most- don't.
 
#224
#224
lawgator1 said:
Wow, you find one lady from 15 years ago who had a daughter who had this issue and you generalize that the problem is black culture, itself?

You are definitely one of the ones in the hard right that is pure racist.
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I read his post and I was called an uncle Tom etc. You know as well as I do that inside the AA community it is just as racist amongst each other. "you too dark" or "high yella' girl with good hair thinks she's something" or "uncle Tom" or "house *****" it's a damn shame.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#225
#225
lawgator1 said:
I want everyone to have more wealth, too, but if you think that the far right supports tax reform because their interest is in helping out the poor by taxing the poor more and themselves less, you are either so naive as to truly be mentally retarded or totally insane.
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Yes. Contrary to your absolute ignorant presuppositions about what conservatives think... most of us want the maximum number of people to succeed. We specifically don't want gov't picking winners and losers because that system has a long history of producing more losers than necessary.

What is wrong with you that you do not understand? I DO NOT want to see the poor taxed more. I want to see everyone taxed at a lower percentage so that the private economy produces greater wealth. Are you really so blinded or devoid of math skills that you cannot figure out that taxing someone 20% who makes $100K is better for EVERYONE in the economy than taxing someone 40% who makes $50K?

Is it really that hard to understand that a bigger pie gives more people an opportunity to have a bigger piece?
 
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