All Time NBA Players Thread - No Jordan vs. Lebron Debate Allowed

#677
#677
SGA is still pretty young. I’m not writing him off so I want to make sure that this isn’t a “SGA doesn’t have the CLUTCH GENE” Bayless rant.

But, the next step in his game is finding go-to spots on the floor. As an unabashed Kobe hater, something I always appreciated during his 2008-2010 run was when his jump shot wasn’t falling or the physicality of the game was knocking him off his drives and he struggled getting to the cup, he had a couple spots in the floor that he could go get a bucket from. Left elbow…right block…left baseline…three dribble drive to his left from the top of the key…he had preplanned moves he knew he worked specifically on to get buckets late.

SGA is just more drive and react instead of “This is my plan to get my shot off. If they do this I’ll hit this guy but I want this shot in this spot.” He’s young, he will eventually get it. But you saw tonight when he got the ball, he didn’t have a plan
 
#680
#680
95 Vol Alum said:
www.yahoo.com

Scottie Pippen says there is no such thing as the GOAT: "I saw a two-time, should have been three-time MVP, not even get picked by his peers"

Scottie Pippen rejects the idea of a singular GOAT, pointing to media-driven narratives as proof that greatness can't be boxed into one name.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
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Totally fine if somebody wants to say there is no way to fairly determine a GOAT with any certainty, but some of these arguments are so funny....he says Jokic "wasn't picked by his peers." When it was just two of his peers picking teams for fun, not to win a title, and this was before Jokic was Jokic. He points out Jokic has 3 MVP's implying that's how we know the pickers were wrong...but he had just said MJ's GOAT narrative was partially propelled by media-driven MVP's. He's got a circular problem there.

And he makes a point about people not giving context to the accomplishments. I think he's arguing with idiots here, because I think most of us do give context. We do consider Bill Russell, despite what he says. But the context is he was on great teams in an era with just 8 franchises, and we also know his profile, and he was a limited offensive player. We count the titles, add the context, and we put him around top 5 all time. My generation does it. So does Pippen's. So does Bill Simmons, who is older Gen Z and the biggest Celtics fan ever.
 
#681
#681
Pre-Draft Hype #1 Picks since LeBron (highest to least hype)

Wemby
Oden
Zion
Davis
Flagg
Griffin
Rose
Towns
Wall
Irving
Simmons
Cade
Howard
Wiggins
Fultz
Edwards
Ayton
Paolo
Bogut
Bargnani
Risacher
Bennett
 
#682
#682
zjcvols said:
Pre-Draft Hype #1 Picks since LeBron (highest to least hype)

Wemby
Oden
Zion
Davis
Flagg
Griffin
Rose
Towns
Wall
Irving
Simmons
Cade
Howard
Wiggins
Fultz
Edwards
Ayton
Paolo
Bogut
Bargnani
Risacher
Bennett
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Do you mean hype as in Zion was a greater sensation than AD?.,...because I don't think anybody would say he was a better prospect. I also think Flagg is a better prospect than Zion.

I always heard the consensus among scouts is that AD was the highest rated college prospect since Tim Duncan and that nobody has quite been at AD's level since.
 
#683
#683
n_huffhines said:
Do you mean hype as in Zion was a greater sensation than AD?.,...because I don't think anybody would say he was a better prospect. I also think Flagg is a better prospect than Zion.
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Some of both. The Zion hype was insane. I think if you did grades Zion was lower than Davis.
 
#685
#685
I'm posting this here simply because it addresses the changing landscape in the NBA with team building. The 2nd apron has changed everything, and the point is to make it hard to keep a stacked team (think big 3 with good role players) together.

On his pod yesterday, Bill Simmons whined about not being able to keep Brown and Tatum together, and why would the league be trying to prevent teams from keeping their 2 guys....paraphrasing, "Isn't this what everybody wants? Homegrown stars that stick with their teams forever?"

Brown and Tatum don't even make up 50% of Boston's salary. If they feel they have to get rid of Brown, it's because they sold out for the title last year, paying Jrue and KP, who they'll have a hell of a time offloading. It worked. They got their title. And they can keep Brown and Tatum together by somehow moving other contracts or by paying the tax and eating the 2nd apron penalties.They have 5 guys making $28m+ next year, and not one of them is a full-time PF/C. Horford and Kornet are out of contract with Boston already $70m over the cap. They did this to themselves. There is nothing in these rules that forces anybody to split up their 2 best players. Only other decisions can put you in that position.
 
#686
#686
n_huffhines said:
I'm posting this here simply because it addresses the changing landscape in the NBA with team building. The 2nd apron has changed everything, and the point is to make it hard to keep a stacked team (think big 3 with good role players) together.

On his pod yesterday, Bill Simmons whined about not being able to keep Brown and Tatum together, and why would the league be trying to prevent teams from keeping their 2 guys....paraphrasing, "Isn't this what everybody wants? Homegrown stars that stick with their teams forever?"

Brown and Tatum don't even make up 50% of Boston's salary. If they feel they have to get rid of Brown, it's because they sold out for the title last year, paying Jrue and KP, who they'll have a hell of a time offloading. It worked. They got their title. And they can keep Brown and Tatum together by somehow moving other contracts or by paying the tax and eating the 2nd apron penalties.They have 5 guys making $28m+ next year, and not one of them is a full-time PF/C. Horford and Kornet are out of contract with Boston already $70m over the cap. They did this to themselves. There is nothing in these rules that forces anybody to split up their 2 best players. Only other decisions can put you in that position.
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Celtics are scheduled to pay Jrue/KP/Hauser $72M next year. That's what is getting them not the two stars.

The next market efficiency is going to be how to maximize non-lottery picks and able to replace players and not overpay guys 5-8 in your rotation (like Denver has been trying to do). It's never been done at a consistent level but to me in this new era you have to be diligent in your draft processes and unearth guys in that range.
 
#687
#687
zjcvols said:
Celtics are scheduled to pay Jrue/KP/Hauser $72M next year. That's what is getting them not the two stars.

The next market efficiency is going to be how to maximize non-lottery picks and able to replace players and not overpay guys 5-8 in your rotation (like Denver has been trying to do). It's never been done at a consistent level but to me in this new era you have to be diligent in your draft processes and unearth guys in that range.
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What was the Beal trade? Four 2nds or something like that? That's the kind of trade the Celtics should be looking for with Jrue (probably can't get it). You get a bunch of bites at the apple, all a chance at a low-cost rotation guy.
 
#688
#688
Shai came into the league saying, "If I do everything right, I can be a rotation guy for a long time." and he conducted himself as a role player for his first few years, which meant he was positively contributing to winning right away (on 2 different teams that over-achieved in making the playoffs). Somehow he parlayed that start to his career into becoming a lead ball-handling MVP without ever being an inefficient player. There were no growing pains where he had to figure things out. The more he took on, the more he justified.

It's a bananas developmental story. Kawhi is like that. Who else had a career like that?
 
#689
#689
n_huffhines said:
Shai came into the league saying, "If I do everything right, I can be a rotation guy for a long time." and he conducted himself as a role player for his first few years, which meant he was positively contributing to winning right away (on 2 different teams that over-achieved in making the playoffs). Somehow he parlayed that start to his career into becoming a lead ball-handling MVP without ever being an inefficient player. There were no growing pains where he had to figure things out. The more he took on, the more he justified.

It's a bananas developmental story. Kawhi is like that. Who else had a career like that?
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the other ai maybe?
 
#692
#692
In 4 playoffs for 2 different franchises in different roles, Shai's career averages are pretty insane:

25.8 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.4 stocks, 2.2 topg, and 2.8 fpg

shooting
.577 TS%
.350 from 3p
.504 from 2p
.859 from the line
.614 at rim
.424 from 3' - 10'
.522 from 10' - 16'
.417 from 16 - 22'

He's well on his way to taking that #3 all-time SG spot. I know Kobe is unassailable for many, but that's in the cards as far as I'm concerned. His first 7 years are better than Kobe's first 7, IMO.
 
#693
#693
It is funny to see Paul Pierce do an about-face on Lebron and turn into his advocate. I think he finally figured out that the better Lebron's legacy is, the more important PP's rivalry with him was.
 
#694
#694
This is blowing my mind. Ray Allen played 37 games of playoff basketball in his "prime" between the Bucks and the Sonics...he shot a TS% of .603 for the Bucks and .599 for the Sonics. I can't think of a single guy in that era who was scoring 24-26 ppg from the perimeter in the playoffs while shooting .600. Not Kobe. Not TMac. Not Vince Carter. Not Grant Hill. Those guys never even did .599 for one playoff run.
 
#695
#695
n_huffhines said:
This is blowing my mind. Ray Allen played 37 games of playoff basketball in his "prime" between the Bucks and the Sonics...he shot a TS% of .603 for the Bucks and .599 for the Sonics. I can't think of a single guy in that era who was scoring 24-26 ppg from the perimeter in the playoffs while shooting .600. Not Kobe. Not TMac. Not Vince Carter. Not Grant Hill. Those guys never even did .599 for one playoff run.
Click to expand...

We should have gotten Ray Allen/KG in Minnesota. Every title from ‘99-2010 changes
 
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#696
#696
zjcvols said:
We should have gotten Ray Allen/KG in Minnesota. Every title from ‘99-2010 changes
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I always think about if the Lakers somehow drafted Ray Allen instead of Kobe...I think he was a little more NBA ready than Kobe, his shooting was especially nice to pair with Shaq, and then they would've stayed together longer...I don't think it's crazy to say they would've won 4 titles. They would've had 3 or 4 more bites at the apple. Kobe and Shaq only had about 6 (and won 3).
 
#697
#697
n_huffhines said:
I always think about if the Lakers somehow drafted Ray Allen instead of Kobe...I think he was a little more NBA ready than Kobe, his shooting was especially nice to pair with Shaq, and then they would've stayed together longer...I don't think it's crazy to say they would've won 4 titles. They would've had 3 or 4 more bites at the apple. Kobe and Shaq only had about 6 (and won 3).
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Disagree, Ray Allen ain't got it, like Kobe, imo. That killer instinct, drive to WIN and/or NOT LOSE or whatever you call it, like Kobe had. One at the most, once again, imo
 
#698
#698
The Dog said:
Disagree, Ray Allen ain't got it, like Kobe, imo. That killer instinct, drive to WIN and/or NOT LOSE or whatever you call it, like Kobe had. One at the most, once again, imo
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Yeah, Ray Allen didn't have the killer instinct to get drafted onto Shaq's team. He did hit a much bigger playoff shot than Kobe ever did, tho. Ray Allen had the KI to shoot a TS% of .708 at 20 ppg in his first finals. Never even heard of that. Then he shot .715 in his 2nd final.

Why do you think Ray Ray didn't have it? He's one of the few guys who was actually clutch (meaning he shot better in the playoffs).

Guess what Kobe shot in his finals. He had like 8 tries....don't even think he did .570, but I'm not looking thru all them

Kobe lost a ton of games when his teams weren't stacked. The Kobe legend is getting out of control.
 
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#699
#699
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, Ray Allen didn't have the killer instinct to get drafted onto Shaq's team. He did hit a much bigger playoff shot than Kobe ever did, tho. Ray Allen had the KI to shoot a TS% of .708 at 20 ppg in his first finals. Never even heard of that. Then he shot .715 in his 2nd final.

Why do you think Ray Ray didn't have it? He's one of the few guys who was actually clutch (meaning he shot better in the playoffs).

Guess what Kobe shot in his finals. He had like 8 tries....don't even think he did .570, but I'm not looking thru all them

Kobe lost a ton of games when his teams weren't stacked. The Kobe legend is getting out of control.
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No, Kobe barely makes my all-time (15) team. I love Ray, but when he was the main man, despite the talent level, he never really carried his team to even a Conference Championship run, iIrc. But, I do smoke a lot of weed
 
#700
#700
The Dog said:
No, Kobe barely makes my all-time (15) team. I love Ray, but when he was the main man, despite the talent level, he never really carried his team to even a Conference Championship run, iIrc. But, I do smoke a lot of weed
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MJ never "carried" a team far. Kobe never carried. They either had great teams and went far or they didn't and didn't. Ray Allen wasn't on a great team until 2008

Not many players have carried a team deep. Olajuwon, Lebron, Jimmy Butler, AI....who else? That's probably the list.
 
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