War in Ukraine

#76,702
#76,702
utvolpj said:
Nonsense? That had been the stance way before this current war. Why should we now see it suddenly wasn't believable? Everyone was told this was going to happen and then acts shocked when it did
Click to expand...

Way before this war? As in pre-2014 since that is when Russia began the invasion?

Our stance was pretty much nonexistent. France and Germany said "no Ukraine in NATO" back in 2008, and we went about our business.

It wasn't until Russia invaded in 2014 that we provided them with measurable support, and even then it was a paltry $2.8 billion dollars from 2014-2021, mostly in the form of training, small arms, and some javelins.

The Obama administration, and the Trump administration were both content to let Russia keep Crimea and keep occupying eastern Ukraine, with the only response being mild sanctions. Putin's escalation in 2022, made US and EU politicians actually pay attention to Russia's land grab, and what that means for the future of eastern Europe.

The Reason that Putin escalated in 2022, is because Obama and Merkel failed to respond accordingly when he tore up the Budapest Memorandum, the Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, and the UN charter by invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat to Russia.
 
#76,703
#76,703
volgr said:
You are wasting your time with these NAFO like trolls in this thread. They live in an alternate reality.
Click to expand...
They live in the same reality we do. They just have a hard time coping. Oddly, they are still in the first stage of grief (denial) for the past 2 years.
 
#76,705
#76,705
utvolpj said:
Because the incentive for the leaders to continue is more than their incentive to negotiate. He was simply a messenger pawn used to deliver the west's terms. None of this has anything to do with the people in the field as they have no say
Click to expand...
the people in the field have all the say. what is any world leader going to do to them from the west? Putin's treatment will be far worse.

just because something is inevitable doesn't mean it shouldn't be resisted, even if it means dying. as long as the Ukrainians are making that choice, and you haven't refuted that so far, its no call of ours.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hog88
#76,706
#76,706
utvolpj said:
Neutrality. Louder said you had discussed it many times. Figured that meant it was already entered into the record.
Click to expand...
that was a pre-war goal. it wasn't the peace talks Putin wanted in 2022. He wanted land, a demilitarized Ukraine, and Russian puppets in charge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#76,707
#76,707
BeardedVol said:
Way before this war? As in pre-2014 since that is when Russia began the invasion?

Our stance was pretty much nonexistent. France and Germany said "no Ukraine in NATO" back in 2008, and we went about our business.

It wasn't until Russia invaded in 2014 that we provided them with measurable support, and even then it was a paltry $2.8 billion dollars from 2014-2021, mostly in the form of training, small arms, and some javelins.

The Obama administration, and the Trump administration were both content to let Russia keep Crimea and keep occupying eastern Ukraine, with the only response being mild sanctions. Putin's escalation in 2022, made US and EU politicians actually pay attention to Russia's land grab, and what that means for the future of eastern Europe.

The Reason that Putin escalated in 2022, is because Obama and Merkel failed to respond accordingly when he tore up the Budapest Memorandum, the Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, and the UN charter by invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat to Russia.
Click to expand...
You really Yada Yada over 2014 and the west's involvement. We already knew what would happen way back in 2008 yet continued to chase the fight
 
#76,708
#76,708
PKT_VOL said:
The US/Germany had hoped that Russia would have had enough by now but underestimated their glutenous desire for punishment.
Click to expand...
You just said it. The hope strategy...

PKT_VOL said:
That clearly isn't the case and Ukraine can't sustain a war of attrition indefinitely.
Click to expand...
So NATO poses an existential threat on Russia's border, no different than if the Chinese or Russia's would have been doing the same in Mexico or Cuba, and they "hoped" that the Russians would just give up? Had Russia really felt that they were losing at any point in this conflict, they would have had no other option but to go nuclear to remove the existential threat.

Consider it a blessing for life on Earth that the Russians are beating NATO.
 
#76,709
#76,709
utvolpj said:
I wasn't gone and that doesn't make the argument any different. Any justification given by a politician after a negotiation is suspect. The actions absolutely fit the western proxy model.

Kinda like believing the graphic posted every day of Russian loses from the Kyiv independent. No reason to doubt them right?
Click to expand...
oh I am sorry I summed up you maybe lurking in the PF for months on end while not actively engaging in the on going conversations as "gone". sorry that summation bothered you.

why don't you question the Russian politicians after the negotiation? are they not worthy of suspect too? again you have yet to lay out what leverage we used. how did we end the talks?

we ended the talks by promising them weapons they wouldn't have needed if they took the peace deal? Self defeating.
we threatened them with some economic/military future somehow bad enough to be worth fighting the Russians, but not bad enough to actively join the Russians?
we somehow bribe a whole country of politicians, military leaders, and fighters?

as far as the reported deaths if you have really been following along you would have already seen me explain my stance on them. since you have been here *wink* I won't waste your time talking about my assumed accuracy of such.
 
#76,710
#76,710
Rasputin_Vol said:
You just said it. The hope strategy...


So NATO poses an existential threat on Russia's border, no different than if the Chinese or Russia's would have been doing the same in Mexico or Cuba, and they "hoped" that the Russians would just give up? Had Russia really felt that they were losing at any point in this conflict, they would have had no other option but to go nuclear to remove the existential threat.

Consider it a blessing for life on Earth that the Russians are beating NATO.
Click to expand...

NATO poses such an "existential threat" that for the longest period of time in Russian history it wasn't invaded.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volbound1700, NorthDallas40 and LouderVol
#76,711
#76,711
utvolpj said:
Nonsense? That had been the stance way before this current war. Why should we now see it suddenly wasn't believable? Everyone was told this was going to happen and then acts shocked when it did
Click to expand...
You hear it all the time... even today. They think that Putin is "bluffing". The US/The West assumes that everyone bluffs just like they do.
 
Last edited:
#76,712
#76,712
LouderVol said:
oh I am sorry I summed up you maybe lurking in the PF for months on end while not actively engaging in the on going conversations as "gone". sorry that summation bothered you.

why don't you question the Russian politicians after the negotiation? are they not worthy of suspect too? again you have yet to lay out what leverage we used. how did we end the talks?

we ended the talks by promising them weapons they wouldn't have needed if they took the peace deal? Self defeating.
we threatened them with some economic/military future somehow bad enough to be worth fighting the Russians, but not bad enough to actively join the Russians?
we somehow bribe a whole country of politicians, military leaders, and fighters?

as far as the reported deaths if you have really been following along you would have already seen me explain my stance on them. since you have been here *wink* I won't waste your time talking about my assumed accuracy of such.
Click to expand...
I don't believe politicians from any side or country. What I do see is there were active negotiations until Johnson was sent in to talk and then they break down. Coincidence? Sure, that's one possibility
 
#76,714
#76,714
Rasputin_Vol said:
You just said it. The hope strategy...


So NATO poses an existential threat on Russia's border, no different than if the Chinese or Russia's would have been doing the same in Mexico or Cuba, and they "hoped" that the Russians would just give up? Had Russia really felt that they were losing at any point in this conflict, they would have had no other option but to go nuclear to remove the existential threat.

Consider it a blessing for life on Earth that the Russians are beating NATO.
Click to expand...

NATO poses an existential threat to Russia? You really believe that? Even Putin doesn't believe that.

Russia isn't losing this conflict? Hundred of thousands of causalities, tens of thousands of military hardware assets loss, hundreds of aircraft, and dozens of ships for holding the Donbass and Crimea? You really believe that? You believe Putin makes that trade pre-invasion?

Russians are beating NATO? Russians are fighting NATO instead of fighting Ukraine with some donated 30+ year technology from some NATO members? You really believe that? Even Putin doesn't believe that. If so, he wouldn't have pulled troops from his new 823-mile NATO border that is less than 100 miles from St. Petersburg.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volbound1700 and BeardedVol
#76,717
#76,717
utvolpj said:
I don't believe politicians from any side or country. What I do see is there were active negotiations until Johnson was sent in to talk and then they break down. Coincidence? Sure, that's one possibility
Click to expand...
and another possibility is that Ukraine wasn't willing to accept Russia's terms which included far far more than just neutrality as you tried to claim previously. the Ukrainians have a very long history of suffering under the Russians and they probably didn't want to take that chance again.

even if your scenario was correct so what? The Ukrainians still had to make a decision. Trust the Russians, or trust the west. considering we haven't invaded them and occupied their territory, I can see why they were willing to trust us. and I am not sure how us being willing to back their fight makes us the bad guys. Its the weird Russian based American Exceptionalism that makes no sense from Ras.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#76,718
#76,718
Rasputin_Vol said:
They live in the same reality we do. They just have a hard time coping. Oddly, they are still in the first stage of grief (denial) for the past 2 years.
Click to expand...

Physically their body is in the same reality as we are but their mind is in some other dimension.
 
#76,720
#76,720
volgr said:
Physically their body is in the same reality as we are but their mind is in some other dimension.
Click to expand...
you mean this reality? the one you have dipped, ducked, dodged, and dipped around.

Yanukovych Wins Ukraine’s Presidential Election

www.oscepa.org www.oscepa.org

"Yanukovych has also promised to move ahead to meet EU requirements for signing a so-called Association Agreement, including a free-trade package that would help exporters gain more market share in the 27-nation bloc."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NorthDallas40
#76,723
#76,723
dalton_vol said:
like i say, if you want to make a bunch of money for dem and republican pols, then we keep sending weapons until Ukrainian men are decimated, if you want to win the war, you send American troops. I'm not in favor of sending troops but that's the reality. you either send troops or you work for peace. the status quo hurts America's readiness and it hurts Ukraine.
Click to expand...

Logical conclusion.
 
#76,724
#76,724
LouderVol said:
WW1 we definitely should have stayed out of. In fact our president at the time knew the main peace deal (Versailles) that came out of WW1 with Germany would have dire consequences. he was right. our involvement only made things worse.

WW2 we should have only been involved after Dec 7th 1941, and only in the Pacific Theatre.
Click to expand...

Very concerning the amount of people that believe this in this thread.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top