War in Ukraine

#76,676
#76,676
LouderVol said:
no we didn't subvert it. we didn't cancel any meetings, we didn't give Ukraine an ultimatum of fight Russia or fight NATO, we didn't instigate any proxy act to back their war support.

we told Ukraine IF they chose to fight we would support them.

as hog pointed out, what would be our leverage to keep Ukraine fighting? If we told them we would stop providing aid if they didn't fight, they could just stop fighting and not need the aid. if we stopped trading with them they could just go right back to Russia.
Click to expand...
Boris Johnson absolutely subverted the end of the war. The west wants this fight and didn't care since western lives weren't being ended for their cause.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rasputin_Vol
#76,677
#76,677
utvolpj said:
They had no chance without a massive import of western weapons. Even that can only last so long given the Russian military's historical strategy of overwhelming with numbers. The math just didn't hold up
Click to expand...
again, yes they still had a chance. its small and its bloody, but its there.

we made their chance for victory less bloody, but still small.

also I think what you are considering victory for Ukraine is probably not what is actually being aimed at, so you are slanting the standard.

Emus, the literal birds, defeated Australians armed with machine guns. the taliban have held off the British, Russians, and Americans. there is always a chance if you are willing to stomach the consequences.
 
  • Like
Reactions: InVOLuntary and PKT_VOL
#76,678
#76,678
utvolpj said:
Boris Johnson absolutely subverted the end of the war. The west wants this fight and didn't care since western lives weren't being ended for their cause.
Click to expand...
we have been over his quotes ITT. he said we would support them in the fight. that was after Ukraine had told us/him they would seek peace if they weren't going to get the support they needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#76,680
#76,680
LouderVol said:
no we didn't subvert it. we didn't cancel any meetings, we didn't give Ukraine an ultimatum of fight Russia or fight NATO, we didn't instigate any proxy act to back their war support.

we told Ukraine IF they chose to fight we would support them.

as hog pointed out, what would be our leverage to keep Ukraine fighting? If we told them we would stop providing aid if they didn't fight, they could just stop fighting and not need the aid. if we stopped trading with them they could just go right back to Russia.
Click to expand...

It's an asinine argument.
 
  • Like
Reactions: InVOLuntary, tvolsfan and NorthDallas40
#76,682
#76,682
hog88 said:
Fight. Why is that so hard for you to understand? They were fighting before the mass influx of western arms.
Click to expand...
I really want to know what Boris Johnson did to actively end the peace talks. Call the Russians with a Ukrainian accent and tell them the talks were off? Or reverse to Ukraine? did he hold a gun to someone's head? Did he buy someone? Fart on the Russian diplomats?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#76,683
#76,683
LouderVol said:
again, yes they still had a chance. its small and its bloody, but its there.

we made their chance for victory less bloody, but still small.

also I think what you are considering victory for Ukraine is probably not what is actually being aimed at, so you are slanting the standard.

Emus, the literal birds, defeated Australians armed with machine guns. the taliban have held off the British, Russians, and Americans. there is always a chance if you are willing to stomach the consequences.
Click to expand...
Less bloody? How many more have died since late 2022?
 
#76,684
#76,684
utvolpj said:
Boris Johnson absolutely subverted the end of the war. The west wants this fight and didn't care since western lives weren't being ended for their cause.
Click to expand...

What was BJs leverage? Other than bribing Zelenskyy which I'm positive we have made him a very wealthy man what was the incentive we gave to the men actually doing the dying? Those guys can quit at any time.
 
#76,687
#76,687
LouderVol said:
I really want to know what Boris Johnson did to actively end the peace talks. Call the Russians with a Ukrainian accent and tell them the talks were off? Or reverse to Ukraine? did he hold a gun to someone's head? Did he buy someone? Fart on the Russian diplomats?
Click to expand...
Ukraine was in talks until he showed up. Their leadership changes course and allows more pawns to die. What could possible have happened to change their course? No clue and I'm sure it was all above board and done with the actual fighting men in mind. That's how the west elites operate right?
 
#76,689
#76,689
LouderVol said:
I really want to know what Boris Johnson did to actively end the peace talks. Call the Russians with a Ukrainian accent and tell them the talks were off? Or reverse to Ukraine? did he hold a gun to someone's head? Did he buy someone? Fart on the Russian diplomats?
Click to expand...

Oh I wouldn't doubt for a second we (collectively with GB) bribed Zelenskyy, if the story about peace talks is actually true. But it doesn't matter what we gave Z, if the soldiers in the field don't want to fight there is not a damn thing we (collectively) or Zelenskeyy can do.
 
#76,691
#76,691
utvolpj said:
Ukraine was in talks until he showed up. Their leadership changes course and allows more pawns to die. What could possible have happened to change their course? No clue and I'm sure it was all above board and done with the actual fighting men in mind. That's how the west elites operate right?
Click to expand...

Ukraine's lead negotiator literally says you are spewing nonsense.

They didn't trust Russia, and what Russia was demanding, was untenable.

mythdetector.ge

Manipulation, as if Arakhamia Said that the Deal with Russia Failed Because of Boris Johnson’s Position

On November 26, the pro-Kremlin media Alt-Info and the Facebook pages of the "Conservative Movement" party (1;2), as well as
mythdetector.ge mythdetector.ge
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#76,692
#76,692
LouderVol said:
Boris Johnson is gone. has been for a while. pretty sure that was pretty close to his last act. why didn't the Ukrainians reconsider after the problem was gone?
Click to expand...
Because the incentive for the leaders to continue is more than their incentive to negotiate. He was simply a messenger pawn used to deliver the west's terms. None of this has anything to do with the people in the field as they have no say
 
#76,693
#76,693
utvolpj said:
Less bloody? How many more have died since late 2022?
Click to expand...
less bloody than if they hadn't been armed. Russians' haven't been kind to civilians, both in and out of war. peace isn't without a cost, especially for the loser. and especially when its the Russians, and even more so when its the Russians taking over Ukraine. Holodomor was far far worse than anything Russia could do on the battlefield, there could be Ukrainians who survived that still around, their kids certainly are. plenty of post ww2 soviet era atrocities too.

unless you believe the Putin propaganda that Ukraine was waiting to lay down arms and join the mighty Russian army in fighting the west.
 
#76,696
#76,696
BeardedVol said:
Ukraine's lead negotiator literally says you are spewing nonsense.

They didn't trust Russia, and what Russia was demanding, was untenable.

mythdetector.ge

Manipulation, as if Arakhamia Said that the Deal with Russia Failed Because of Boris Johnson’s Position

On November 26, the pro-Kremlin media Alt-Info and the Facebook pages of the "Conservative Movement" party (1;2), as well as
mythdetector.ge mythdetector.ge
Click to expand...
Nonsense? That had been the stance way before this current war. Why should we now see it suddenly wasn't believable? Everyone was told this was going to happen and then acts shocked when it did
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rasputin_Vol
#76,698
#76,698
utvolpj said:
Ukraine was in talks until he showed up. Their leadership changes course and allows more pawns to die. What could possible have happened to change their course? No clue and I'm sure it was all above board and done with the actual fighting men in mind. That's how the west elites operate right?
Click to expand...
again its been discussed while you were gone. the ukrainians were already distrustful of the Russians and didn't like what was on the table. you are seeing correlation, Johnson was there and shortly after the talks ended, and assuming causation, he ended the peace talks. pretty sure bearded quoted the actual guys at the talk that back up this point.
 
#76,700
#76,700
LouderVol said:
again its been discussed while you were gone. the ukrainians were already distrustful of the Russians and didn't like what was on the table. you are seeing correlation, Johnson was there and shortly after the talks ended, and assuming causation, he ended the peace talks. pretty sure bearded quoted the actual guys at the talk that back up this point.
Click to expand...
I wasn't gone and that doesn't make the argument any different. Any justification given by a politician after a negotiation is suspect. The actions absolutely fit the western proxy model.

Kinda like believing the graphic posted every day of Russian loses from the Kyiv independent. No reason to doubt them right?
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top