War in Ukraine

[Christian Lowe]

I’ll take that as a “yeah you’re right my op-ed completely ignored that very important point which is critical in factually representing Yanukovych’s constitutionally valid removal from office”.

You think Victoria Nuland flew there several times during that period just to observe?

 

[BeardedVol]

It’s not a deep sea port. Not exactly ideal for trade. It takes 30 seconds to verify that.

Lol, do you bother to research anything before you hit "post reply"?

 

[NorthDallas40]

You think Victoria Nuland flew there several times during that period just to observe?

How did Nuland vote in the parliamentary removal of Yanukovych?

Every time Nuland is trotted out a lot of us get a huge laugh. That’s because it’s laughable to impart that much actual power on her. Musta been some hellacious cookies!

 

[BeardedVol]

How did Nuland vote in the parliamentary removal of Yanukovych?

Every time Nulans is trotted out a lot of us get a huge laugh. That’s because it’s laughable to impart that much actual power on her. Musta been some hellacious cookies!

It was the power of her hypnotically delicious cookies.



The Rada members ate them, and were compelled to vote Yanukovych out, against their will.

Yanukovich impeached

Parliament votes to dismiss Viktor Yanukovich and sets early election for May 25, while jailed opposition leader freed.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Christian Lowe]

Lol, do you bother to research anything before you hit "post reply"?
View attachment 626460
View attachment 626461

Mostly from memory but here you go

Edit: also found in my googling that Novorossiysk is hit with bora winds that close the port for weeks at a time in spring.

So not only is it not a true deep water harbor, it isn’t open year round. Thus, Sevastopol is massively important. Good enough for you?

 

[Christian Lowe]

How did Nuland vote in the parliamentary removal of Yanukovych?

Every time Nuland is trotted out a lot of us get a huge laugh. That’s because it’s laughable to impart that much actual power on her. Musta been some hellacious cookies!

Then why was she there

 

[MontyPython]

View attachment 626451
They admit it.

You are conflating facts.

Putin had several demands that included NATO *withdrawal* from current NATO countries. See below. Also, if bordering NATO countries was a "red line" for Putin, why hasn't Russia invaded Estonia and Latvia? They've bordered Russia without incident for decades.

Here are Stoltenberg’s words:

“The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition to not invade Ukraine. Of course, we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second-class membership. We rejected that.

So, he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.”

 

[MontyPython]

BRICS directly aims to displace the US dollar as the world’s trade currency, so yeah, no reason to care. And Brazil isn’t on our border. We invade or overthrow any country that doesn’t do what we want. We’re worse than Putin in every metric. There’s nothing he’s doing that we haven’t done at a larger scale.

Cable: 08MOSCOW265_a

wikileaks.org

Don’t take it from me, take it from the head of the CIA.

Sounds like you truly hate our country.

The good news is you can voice your opinion without fear of being imprisoned or killed here in the US. And - best of all - you're free to leave anytime.

 

[MontyPython]

What their reserve currency is wasn’t the point. Everyone is offloading US Dollars as fast as they can. That’s my concern, I couldn’t care less if they do it with the Yuan or not.


We’re not the same as putin. We’re worse. Just saying it isn’t true isn’t making any substantial argument against that. It’s an objective fact that we’ve invaded far more countries for far less, and have overthrown governments that dare oppose us anywhere we can.

*cough*

Reality:

 

[MontyPython]

View attachment 626464
Mostly from memory but here you go

Edit: also found in my googling that Novorossiysk is hit with bora winds that close the port for weeks at a time in spring.

So not only is it not a true deep water harbor, it isn’t open year round. Thus, Sevastopol is massively important. Good enough for you?

Ummm...

You're citing and posting snippets of a blog...
Written by a student...
Attending a school...
In Austria...
For K through 12th graders...
With branches in Beijing...
That are all now closed.

Also, I'm still waiting patiently for the deed to that bridge I bought from you.

Sevastopol: Russia's Golden Port - WYAcademy

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

View attachment 626464
Mostly from memory but here you go

Edit: also found in my googling that Novorossiysk is hit with bora winds that close the port for weeks at a time in spring.

So not only is it not a true deep water harbor, it isn’t open year round. Thus, Sevastopol is massively important. Good enough for you?

You are talking to a gaslighter. He understands why Crimea is important for all of the reasons you posted.

I still don't understand why Ukraine's borders with Russia are of importance to American security, but our border with Mexico seems to be of far less importance.

 

[hog88]

I’m not gonna go down the rabbit hole here, but I assume you think Russia stops at Ukraine and status quo remains, just with more tanks rolling along the Poland - Ukraine/Russian border.

But let’s assume they don’t and Russia wants to get the ole USSR gang back together. Now you see why having troops in Poland is relevant.

It doesn’t take a PhD in strategic studies to know why we have soldiers there. They may be in Poland, but let’s be real, their main purpose is as a deterrent to Russia.

And again, what does that have to do with sending troops into Ukraine?

After seeing Russias military performance in Ukraine I cannot fathom why you ninnies are concerned about their conventional forces moving any further west.

 

[hog88]

They wouldn’t do anything. There is zero evidence or even probable cause to assume putin would advance beyond ukraine. It’s been known for decades that ukraine was Russia’s red line. We crossed it over and over. We antagonized and caused this entire war. Putin isn’t some mad man who did this on a whim, and he isn’t out for world domination.

He just doesn’t want NATO on his doorstep. It’s understandable.

He’s had NATO on his doorstep for years.

 

[MontyPython]

 

[LouderVol]

Russian expansion is definitely our concern, I don’t see how you can say it’s not.

That would be like Iran invading Iraq or North Korea invading South Korea and saying it’s not our concern.

Whether it’s worth putting troops on the ground, sure, that worth a discussion, but a near peer threat pushing West is definitely concerning.

because they aren't invading any of our allies. we aren't the world's police, we have spent too many lives, too much money, made too many enemies, and not gotten the credit due of efforts. The world is too spoiled by us right now, and unless we have a direct obligation to defend them we should stay the heck out and let the world deal with it. we are too spread out, involved in too many conflicts. there is a saying in warfare, when you defend everything, you defend nothing. it applies to us.

I am pretty sure if Iran invaded Iraq that 99% of Americans wouldn't want us involved. we are tired of the being the sandbox for the last 40 years. Iraq has made it clear they don't want us there. going back to my first paragraph they need to learn the consequences.

South Korea we do have an direct obligation to defend. and I think most people in America would be willing to support the SK against NK. not only do we have a direct obligation, but SK has been an important and willing partner in multiple aspects, including our economy. and the public generally sees a much bigger difference between the North and South Koreans (their governments at least) vs Iraq and Iran.

NATO has pushed east more than Russia has pushed west. Russia has spent 2 years struggling with the most Russian friendly nation they will find outside of Belarus. and they barely hold 20% of Ukraine. impossible to really judge how anyone would do in a straight up fight, but I would put at least three European nations significantly stronger than Ukraine. UK, France, Poland. Then you have the rash of European countries who would definitely fight to protect themselves, which is pretty much all of the Baltic Nations, Latavia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Finland.

You take those countries alone and Russia wouldn't win a war against NATO. Putin's expansions have only been in non-NATO countries, he didn't even bark at Finland or Sweden joining NATO, even though his made up fear of Ukraine joining NATO was an early justification. Why? Because he knows he doesn't want to fight NATO. All of the NATO border nations have reported that Russian border troops on their territory has decreased by at least half. that is not something you do if you are thinking about invading them later. it also shows how much Russia is struggling in Ukraine. They have decreased their own border protection with NATO, they have crawfished on their defensive alliance with Armenia, they haven't been able to fulfill their preexisting arms deals with India, and I just read their military exports have fallen to their lowest levels ever, and are barely a net exporter of military equipment now.

Putin isn't going to be able to push any into territory that we should really care about.

 

[LouderVol]

Who’s taking a nap next to Lee Corso?

I keep telling people, she is Lee Corso in a wig. that which has been seen can't be unseen.

 

[LouderVol]

By your logic, we had no business getting involved in World War 1 or World War 2.

The only position you take is the one Putin tells you to.

WW1 we definitely should have stayed out of. In fact our president at the time knew the main peace deal (Versailles) that came out of WW1 with Germany would have dire consequences. he was right. our involvement only made things worse.

WW2 we should have only been involved after Dec 7th 1941, and only in the Pacific Theatre.

 

[LouderVol]

They wouldn’t do anything. There is zero evidence or even probable cause to assume putin would advance beyond ukraine. It’s been known for decades that ukraine was Russia’s red line. We crossed it over and over. We antagonized and caused this entire war. Putin isn’t some mad man who did this on a whim, and he isn’t out for world domination.

He just doesn’t want NATO on his doorstep. It’s understandable.

how did we cross the Ukrainian red line? No troops, no weapons, no nukes.

NATO has been on his door step for decades. he didn't say crap then. and oh yeah you and Putin might want to look north on the map because Finland joined and Putin didn't say squat. He has never been actually threatened but NATO, if he actually was he would have actually gone after NATO. he is going after Ukraine precisely because its the one place in Europe he could flex without running into NATO.

 

[dalton_vol]

I’m not gonna go down the rabbit hole here, but I assume you think Russia stops at Ukraine and status quo remains, just with more tanks rolling along the Poland - Ukraine/Russian border.

But let’s assume they don’t and Russia wants to get the ole USSR gang back together. Now you see why having troops in Poland is relevant.

It doesn’t take a PhD in strategic studies to know why we have soldiers there. They may be in Poland, but let’s be real, their main purpose is as a deterrent to Russia.

like i say, if you want to make a bunch of money for dem and republican pols, then we keep sending weapons until Ukrainian men are decimated, if you want to win the war, you send American troops. I'm not in favor of sending troops but that's the reality. you either send troops or you work for peace. the status quo hurts America's readiness and it hurts Ukraine.

 

[LouderVol]

The 2014 invasion was caused by a coup we backed that ousted their democratically elected leader.

It is about NATO. We’ve been meddling in their country when they’ve explicitly said it’s a red line since the late 1990’s.

you mean the Democratically elected leader who promised closer ties with the West?

Yanukovych Wins Ukraine’s Presidential Election

www.oscepa.org

"Yanukovych has also promised to move ahead to meet EU requirements for signing a so-called Association Agreement, including a free-trade package that would help exporters gain more market share in the 27-nation bloc."

he ran on a pro-western campaign. he defeated the more Russian friendly incumbent. he was all pro west until literally the weak of signing the deal with the west which was extremely popular. then suddenly at the 11.5 hour he tears up the western agreement, and signs a new deal with Russia that hadn't even been brought in front of their Rada.

The same Rada that followed their constitution to impeach/remove Yanukovych AFTER he fled to a Russian villa. The same Yanukovych who had previously signed a deal with the Rada to hold a special election on the matter of the trade deals. by running to Russia he crawfished on that too.

 

[LouderVol]

Because it isn’t worse strategically? Ukraine has the only year round warm water port that Russia has access to. They’re former satellites, the Nordic countries aren’t. Half the people there are Russian. They all speak roughly the same language. It’s the bread basket of europe.

Why Russia cares more about Ukraine than the Nordics is fairly obvious. It disputes what you said because they didn’t say Sweden, or Norway, or Poland was a red line. They said Ukraine was.

warm water port: true. but at this point, for what navy? Ukraine has sunk a good number without their own navy. also considering the Black Sea access is controlled by a NATO nation, Turkey, the reliability of that warm water port is very much in question regardless of them having a warm water port.

also considering the time Russia has had the only reason its their only warm water military port is because Russia has chosen to let it stay. it still has plenty of coastline on the Black Sea it could have built a port in by now.

Finland is a former satellite.

Half of Ukraines population is not Russian. Even in the territories held by Russia they weren't a majority Russian. Demographics of Ukraine - Wikipedia

the bread basket of Europe has nothing to do with Russia, and just speaks to a land grab. Russia is #2 btw, so its not like it was some area Russia was deep behind.

 

[LouderVol]

You think Victoria Nuland flew there several times during that period just to observe?

that literally her job. or was.

its her job to keep tabs on what is going on in other countries and to know where the country is going. she met with 30 something different people over there, only like three of which took any power, and they only held that power in the short time from Yanukovych fleeing until there was a special election later that year. whoopty freaking doo. also those 3 were already in power, or had been previously, so its not like she was playing king maker over there.

you really think in 2014 it was necessary for her to be there in person to foment a coup? I really want to know when in history someone as high up as the Secretary of State has physically gone to a country to create a coup? some diplomats or agents, sure. a pretty well known Public Figure? laughable.

 

[BeardedVol]

View attachment 626464
Mostly from memory but here you go

Edit: also found in my googling that Novorossiysk is hit with bora winds that close the port for weeks at a time in spring.

So not only is it not a true deep water harbor, it isn’t open year round. Thus, Sevastopol is massively important. Good enough for you?

Lol I just listed the maximum draft depths for you.

Where do you think that Russia has moved the surviving ships of the black sea fleet?

Satellite images show Russia moved military ships after Ukrainian attacks

Satellite images confirm that multiple ships in the Russian Black Sea fleet have been moved to the Russian port of Novorossiysk.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Velo Vol]

Second Il-76 in a month. At least this one (presumably) didn't kill Ukrainian POWs.

 

[Velo Vol]