War in Ukraine

#31,451
#31,451
volgr said:
Because Russia intel is much more accurate (and without the clownish Ghost of Kiev or Snake Island nonsense).

Anyone that truly believed that was naive. It was pure propaganda for Americans and the Europeans.

I think they wanted a quick negotiated settlement. I don't think they have ever had any aspiration of taking on the whole of Ukraine, with or without a puppet regime.

If they established a puppet government, they would have by definition taken all of Ukraine,

I have not stated that.

Maybe you didn't but others have.

Ukraine being corrupt doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Ukraine provoking a neighboring Country and not being able to protect its' borders from said neighboring Country does have consequences and one of those is possibly having your borders violated.

This is where I adamantly disagree with you. Trying to either recapture land or cause the enemy that has taken over part of your country pain is not provocation.

Because our "help" doesn't occur in a vacuum. Just look at all of misadventures over the last few decades. The unintended consequences, blowback, etc. This is having huge negative ramifications, not only at home and in Europe...but worldwide. All for what? What have we gained? The majority Ukrainian lands would have been preserved in a negotiated settlement and tens of thousands of their young men would still be alive.

The young men that will die on the Ukrainian side have chosen to fight for freedom and their country. We are doing nothing but feeding the MIC as always-nothing new there. As for Europe, them having to go back to alternative energy supplies will be a good them in the long haul.

I think there are many who post in this thread who are either ignorant of the subject or intellectually dishonest. I don't think I am the only one who knows the truth but I do think I am one of a very few who post truthfully.
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There is a lot of ignorant stuff from both sides of this issue-just like every other issue discussed on this board.

I must have hit quote or reply wrong but I commented above on each of your points
 
#31,453
#31,453
NorthDallas40 said:
If we are we’ve gotten a helluva lot better at it since last August even.
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It's not that we got better at support; it's really that we are backing a winning horse for a change - or at least a horse with a will to even make it out of the gate. We just need to stay away from places like the sandbox where they have no clue what a country and governance are all about. You can't build a nation from the outside; the people of a nation have to want it and build it.
 
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#31,454
#31,454
AM64 said:
It's not that we got better at support; it's really that we are backing a winning horse for a change - or at least a horse with a will to even make it out of the gate. We just need to stay away from places like the sandbox where they have no clue what a country and governance are all about. You can't build a nation from the outside; the people of a nation have to want it and build it.
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Yes I agree. My post was sarcasm. We finally picked somebody that is willing to fight for their freedom and self determination
 
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#31,455
#31,455
OrangeTsar said:
I would agree with everything except Biden having nothing to gain. First, ANY distraction from the economy is a plus for Joe. Second, his well connected friends in the defense industry (well befriended by Republicans as well) are raking in. TON of taxpayer money. Most of that $40 billion will go straight into contractor‘s pockets. And some of it will trickle straight back to Joe and the others in truly „bipartisan“ accomplishment
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There are a lot of people working in the businesses that design and build the stuff that some of the $40B is buying. That's money into our manufacturing economy - certainly better than dumping billions on people who are adding nothing. Better a dollar to defense than a dollar to stimulus/welfare.
 
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#31,456
#31,456
NorthDallas40 said:
Yes I agree. My post was sarcasm. We finally picked somebody that is willing to fight for their freedom and self determination
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I know how you meant it; I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. We've picked some of the all time worst people to support lately - you can't fix losers. Nice to work with a competitor even if somehow Ukraine fails.
 
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#31,459
#31,459
This is the equivalent of Biden firing our Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...

Russian military leaders ‘sacked and arrested’ amid heavy battlefield losses

Chief of the Russian general staff, Valery Gerasimov, has been suspended amid the Kremlin’s faltering invasion, a senior Ukrainian official has claimed.

Oleksiy Arestovych, a military adviser to Ukraine's president, said “preliminary information” suggested Gen Gerasimov had been removed from his post while Vladimir Putin and his inner circle assessed whether he should be allowed to continue to lead...

unnamed.jpg
 
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#31,461
#31,461
MontyPython said:
This is the equivalent of Biden firing our Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...

Russian military leaders ‘sacked and arrested’ amid heavy battlefield losses

Chief of the Russian general staff, Valery Gerasimov, has been suspended amid the Kremlin’s faltering invasion, a senior Ukrainian official has claimed.

Oleksiy Arestovych, a military adviser to Ukraine's president, said “preliminary information” suggested Gen Gerasimov had been removed from his post while Vladimir Putin and his inner circle assessed whether he should be allowed to continue to lead...

View attachment 454678
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Was the “fool them into thinking we actually want Kyiv, but really don’t, that’s a diversion” plan, his plan?

@volgr get your resume ready.
 
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#31,462
#31,462
MontyPython said:
This is the equivalent of Biden firing our Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...

Russian military leaders ‘sacked and arrested’ amid heavy battlefield losses

Chief of the Russian general staff, Valery Gerasimov, has been suspended amid the Kremlin’s faltering invasion, a senior Ukrainian official has claimed.

Oleksiy Arestovych, a military adviser to Ukraine's president, said “preliminary information” suggested Gen Gerasimov had been removed from his post while Vladimir Putin and his inner circle assessed whether he should be allowed to continue to lead...

View attachment 454678
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@volgr : This is "SOP"

@DonjoVol : "If the Chief of Russian general staff fired due to losses by Ukraine forces, why is the U.S. even helping?"

@Rasputin_Vol : "blah, blah blah, Syria, blah, blah, blah Grenada"
 
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#31,464
#31,464
AM64 said:
There are a lot of people working in the businesses that design and build the stuff that some of the $40B is buying. That's money into our manufacturing economy - certainly better than dumping billions on people who are adding nothing. Better a dollar to defense than a dollar to stimulus/welfare.
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Dollars going into defense are best spent on weapons and expendables that we retain. You can make the valid argument that we are buying actual defense against Russia by proxy as we are directly funding reduction in Russian military capabilities. But after we have worn down our own military by 2 decades of continuous deployment, I would rather see us restock our own cupboard for a while. Our ultimate adversary is across the Pacific, not the Atlantic. Every dollar we have needs to be in preparation to fight westward, not eastward. But considering the all too apprent influence the CCP exerts over the Biden family and the DNC leadership, I am not really surprised to see us going further into debt while destroying a country that we will need as an ally when the real conflict begins.
 
#31,471
#31,471
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm staying on message. Maybe you are starting to move closer to being able to see the larger picture and long term consequences.
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I have always seen the big picture as follows:
1) The US my Russia both were maneuvering to control Ukraine
2) Russia sees loss of control of bordering countries as a grave security threat (as we would if the roles were reversed)
3) Putin saw Ukraine slipping away and, instead of continuing a war of intrigue and influence, launched open and offensive war against an independent state (very similar to what we also immorally did. against Iraq)
4) point 3 was a stupid and impatient step that undermined everything he needed to accomplish
5) all Democracies now have no choice but to support Ukraine s they WERE attacked, whatever the justification. Putin has unleashed agressive War and his soldiers have committed well documented heinous war crimes.
6) we will ned Russia as an ally long term against China. Our support of Ukraine cannot include a permanent estrangement from Russia
7) us suppzof Ukraine cannot rise to the level of basically being a non declared combatant (see point 6). The recent revelations bout targeting the Muskova and Senior Russian generals put us dangerously close to that line
8) conclusion, the US must Balance carefully our moral requirements to support a victimized state against a desire to humiliate a long term adversary that we need as a long term friend. We are doing a HORRENDOUS job at this balancing act. We are pouring gas on a fire that we Need to be putting out
 
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#31,472
#31,472
OrangeTsar said:
Dollars going into defense are best spent on weapons and expendables that we retain. You can make the valid argument that we are buying actual defense against Russia by proxy as we are directly funding reduction in Russian military capabilities. But after we have worn down our own military by 2 decades of continuous deployment, I would rather see us restock our own cupboard for a while. Our ultimate adversary is across the Pacific, not the Atlantic. Every dollar we have needs to be in preparation to fight westward, not eastward. But considering the all too apprent influence the CCP exerts over the Biden family and the DNC leadership, I am not really surprised to see us going further into debt while destroying a country that we will need as an ally when the real conflict begins.
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I agree with a lot of that; in fact, it seemed like I was in the minority a few years ago when I kept saying here that China was our enemy. There are some important points though, if you don't use weapons in a real situation, then you really don't know how accurate and reliable they are. You really don't know about maintenance and logistics to support weapons until they go on the battlefield for real. Look at the initial M-16 problems on the battlefield, and Sidewinder missiles - it took battle experience to showcase the problems. I see real concern about the F-35; the availability rate is abysmal, the maintenance hours for one hour in the air make for nightmares, and we haven't even faced logistics in a remote area. Maybe China's copies won't be any better. There's the shelf life of military hardware - it's always changing just like cellphones and everything else these days; we might as well use some of it in a place like Ukraine than trash it.

It's true that what we've been doing with our military lately borders on criminal. But you might also ask if you don't fight do you know how to fight. The other part is that we keep showing that we don't always have the right hardware for the current battlefield. Who knows that might be less a problem if we focused on the big picture and didn't get sidetracked in places we didn't belong. There's some sense in going after terrorists where they train, but it's always seemed like we should be reinforcing our borders so we know more about who is here and what they've got to work with. Seems like that would have been a better 9/11 preventive measure overall than to think you can prevent terrorism by terrorizing terrorist training camps.
 
#31,473
#31,473
evillawyer said:
So effin savvy

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