War in Ukraine

#26,476
#26,476
EasternVol said:
If Russia wants to win they need to step it up. And they're stepping it up. Long term things don't look good for Ukraine. But obviously they've been punching above their weight so far, with some help from the West.
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will turn into a protracted guerrilla war with a bleed them dry mentality. Just got to decide what the Ho Chi Minh trail will look like.
 
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#26,477
#26,477
McDad said:
The most effective way to facilitate positive changes in another country is free trade. Exporting our "lifestyle" does more to move the masses than dumping dollars or diplomacy.
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Depends on what you consider “positive changes.” I think it was a widely held assumption over the last 100 or so years that fostering unfettered capitalism goes hand-in-hand with democracy and a “free” society. Now, in retrospect, the post-colonial era has taught us that an increase in capitalism isn’t directly correlated to democratic government/society and can just as easily fuel the fires of fascism.
 
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#26,479
#26,479
AM64 said:
And I don't think you'll find them anywhere near where bullets are firing either. They are worthless CEO types - all hat and no cattle. The people at the top of our military are just politicians of a different breed; hopefully we'll never need them for anything serious.
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Unfortunately in peacetime there is a lot of politics in getting promoted to flag rank. The best and brightest is not always the appointees,
 
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#26,480
#26,480
Redleg68 said:
will turn into a protracted guerrilla war with a bleed them dry mentality. Just got to decide what the Ho Chi Minh trail will look like.
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That would wreak hell on the country and the toll on Ukrainian civilians would be tremendous. I'd say Ukraine will sue for terms if things go real bad. If Ukraine renounces NATO membership then Russia's got its buffer and both sides can live happily ever after, for a while. And Zelenky's already indicated he's open on the NATO issue.
I heard Hillary proposed getting Ukraine set up to wage a guerilla war.
 
#26,481
#26,481
EasternVol said:
That would wreak hell on the country and the toll on Ukrainian civilians would be tremendous. I'd say Ukraine will sue for terms if things go real bad. If Ukraine renounces NATO then Russia's got its buffer and both sides can live happily ever after, for a while.
I heard Hillary proposed getting Ukraine set up to wage a guerilla war.
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I think that you are vastly underestimating just how pissed off the Ukraine people are. Russia/Putin has badly misjudged this one.
 
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#26,482
#26,482
EasternVol said:
That would wreak hell on the country and the toll on Ukrainian civilians would be tremendous. I'd say Ukraine will sue for terms if things go real bad. If Ukraine renounces NATO then Russia's got its buffer and both sides can live happily ever after, for a while.
I heard Hillary proposed getting Ukraine set up to wage a guerilla war.
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Why do you assume that the Ukrainians have any desire to make peace with Russia and give in to their demands? Hell if anything they’ve shown they are more likely to fight to the last fighter, be it man or woman (I’m guessing the 30 or so other genders haven’t made it there yet). And as long as they’re willing to fight the invading bastards it’s in the West’s best interest to arm them. Why are you so quick to just sell them down the River based on their performance thus far?
 
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#26,483
#26,483
OHvol40 said:
Depends on what you consider “positive changes.” I think it was a widely held assumption over the last 100 or so years that fostering unfettered capitalism goes hand-in-hand with democracy and a “free” society. Now, in retrospect, the post-colonial era has taught us that an increase in capitalism isn’t directly correlated to democratic government/society and can just as easily fuel the fires of fascism.
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Who are these democrartic governments? Good thing we aren't a democratic government, but are transforming to one before our eyes. And I find it funny you just say "racism" which excludes other authoritarian governance.
You ever see "democracy" in the USC?
 
#26,485
#26,485
Redleg68 said:
I think that you are vastly underestimating just how pissed off the Ukraine people are. Russia/Putin has badly misjudged this one.
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I'm sure they're very pissed but a guerilla war isn't going to help the Ukrainians. Russia will eventually pull out but only after a lot of death and destruction, on top of that from the current conventional war.
 
#26,486
#26,486
Since certain parties are so quick to bring up broken accords we should go back to the original accord and look at who the guarantors were of Ukrainian security.

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia

According to the memorandum,[23] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:

  1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[24]
  2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
  3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
  4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
  5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
  6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[20][25]
 
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#26,487
#26,487
EasternVol said:
I'm sure they're very pissed but a guerilla war isn't going to help the Ukrainians. Russia will eventually pull out but only after a lot of death and destruction, on top of that from the current conventional war.
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If the issue is not forced and Russia is not having to pay a price, they will keep an occupying army there for the next fifty years. Have you not understood anything about Putin's build back the empire mentality.
 
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#26,488
#26,488
NorthDallas40 said:
Why do you assume that the Ukrainians have any desire to make peace with Russia and give in to their demands? Hell if anything they’ve shown they are more likely to fight to the last fighter, be it man or woman (I’m guessing the 30 or so other genders haven’t made it there yet). And as long as they’re willing to fight the invading bastards it’s in the West’s best interest to arm them. Why are you so quick to just sell them down the River based on their performance thus far?
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You may have missed "... if things go real bad."
edit - did I day Ukraine should sue for terms? No, I said I think they will, if things go real bad for them. Nobody, me anyway, is selling anyone down the river.
 
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#26,490
#26,490
EasternVol said:
That would wreak hell on the country and the toll on Ukrainian civilians would be tremendous. I'd say Ukraine will sue for terms if things go real bad. If Ukraine renounces NATO membership then Russia's got its buffer and both sides can live happily ever after, for a while. And Zelenky's already indicated he's open on the NATO issue.
I heard Hillary proposed getting Ukraine set up to wage a guerilla war.
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I think you underestimate the effectiveness of guerilla warfare and overestimate the capabilities of the Russian military. This is not an experienced combat force with great success since Afghanistan in the early 80’s and that wasn’t great or successful
 
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#26,491
#26,491
NorthDallas40 said:
Why do you assume that the Ukrainians have any desire to make peace with Russia and give in to their demands? Hell if anything they’ve shown they are more likely to fight to the last fighter, be it man or woman (I’m guessing the 30 or so other genders haven’t made it there yet). And as long as they’re willing to fight the invading bastards it’s in the West’s best interest to arm them. Why are you so quick to just sell them down the River based on their performance thus far?
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The more they can be wore down and brought to task here, lessens the chances of them taking on a Baltic region NATO country and some real serious S$%# hits the fan.
 
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#26,492
#26,492
Redleg68 said:
If the issue is not forced and Russia is not having to pay a price, they will keep an occupying army there for the next fifty years. Have you not understood anything about Putin's build back the empire mentality.
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I am well aware that Russia wants its buffer back, effectively the Russian Empire. I've mentioned that here a few times. Let's see what happens.
 
#26,493
#26,493
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#26,495
#26,495
Redleg68 said:
The more they can be wore down and brought to task here, lessens the chances of them taking on a Baltic region NATO country and some real serious S$%# hits the fan.
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As far as I’m concerned we’re in breach of the Budapest memorandum today as are the rest of the signatories. Ukraine isn’t asking us to fight their war they’re asking us to arm them so they can fight their own war. As long as they want to fight let’s arm them.

Now if they decide to pursue peace then we need to respect that also. It’s their right of self determination

Oh and I’ll bet the Poles and Finns are chomping at the bit and saying “just give us a reason. One reason…” 😂
 
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#26,496
#26,496
EasternVol said:
I am well aware that Russia wants its buffer back, effectively the Russian Empire. I've mentioned that here a few times. Let's see what happens.
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Its more than a buffer. It is more food resources (which will be an extremely valuable commodity in the future), more control over pipe lines into Europe and a bigger natural resource for manufacturing. IT surprised the crap out of me in 96 when they let them go. In my heart of hearts I knew this day was coming.
 
#26,497
#26,497
NorthDallas40 said:
As far as I’m concerned we’re in breach of the Budapest memorandum today as are the rest of the signatories. Ukraine isn’t asking us to fight their war they’re asking us to arm them so they can fight their own war. As long as they want to fight let’s arm them.

Now if they decide to pursue peace then we need to respect that also. It’s their right of self determination

Oh and I’ll bet the Poles and Finns are chomping at the bit and saying “just give us a reason. One reason…” 😂
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On another note ND40 do you recognize my Avatar I decided to finally put up?
 
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