War in Ukraine

#25,451
#25,451
LouderVol said:
if you could even acknowledge the counter arguments that would go along way to showing you care about truth and not just propaganda.

Our own weapons expert provided a solid counter argument to your stance. That was a manufacturing number, not a who launched it number. It also ignores the real possibility of the Russians capturing a Ukrainian missile and using it themselves. You know since they are kicking so much butt they are bound to have captured a missile or two.
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Sure, could have been captured by Russia and fired by Russia, but trajectory looks to be from Ukrianian held territory. So that theory is unlikely. Again, all evidence points to Ukraine at this point.
 
#25,452
#25,452
volgr said:
Sure, could have been captured by Russia and fired by Russia, but trajectory looks to be from Ukrianian held territory. So that theory is unlikely. Again, all evidence points to Ukraine at this point.
Click to expand...

Evidence? Really...in the world we live in? This is a huge propaganda war. I dont trust anything I see on Twitter or TikTok. #Jadedas****
 
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#25,453
#25,453
volgr said:
Sure, could have been captured by Russia and fired by Russia, but trajectory looks to be from Ukrianian held territory. So that theory is unlikely. Again, all evidence points to Ukraine at this point.
Click to expand...

Only in your imagination does “all evidence point to Ukraine at this point”. You are incapable of having a real conversation about Russia
 
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#25,454
#25,454
volgr said:
Sure, could have been captured by Russia and fired by Russia, but trajectory looks to be from Ukrianian held territory. So that theory is unlikely. Again, all evidence points to Ukraine at this point.
Click to expand...
Only to you sack carrier only to you. Russia manufacturered that weapon for many former Soviet bloc counties. Not all former Soviet counties have them but the ones that do got them FROM RUSSIA you lying clown.
😂 🤡 😂 🤡
 
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#25,455
#25,455
volgr said:
The serial number has been shown from on the ground photo's/video's. The actual serial number isnt in dispute. It also seems to match serial numbers from other Ukrainian launched Tochka's. At this point the chances this rocket came from Russia is very small.
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It didn't "come from Russia"..it was launched BY Russia in Ukraine..ffs
 
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#25,461
#25,461
volgr said:
Well stated. Putin today basically says negotiations are dead and they will continue to accomplish their goals in Ukraine. With that, how does the US respond? As you say, the US doesnt have a reverse gear. If so, once the Donbas is taken, does the US/NATO send boots in or do they actually stand down?
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I don't think there is anyone in DC on either side of the aisle at this point that has shown a willingness to stand down. At best, we only ruin our economy for the next few decades. At worst, we get plunged into nuclear annihilation over some random country in Eastern Europe lead by an actor and with Joe Biden with his finger on the red button. Ridiculous.
 
#25,462
#25,462
Rasputin_Vol said:
I don't think there is anyone in DC on either side of the aisle at this point that has shown a willingness to stand down. At best, we only ruin our economy for the next few decades. At worst, we get plunged into nuclear annihilation over some random country in Eastern Europe lead by an actor and with Joe Biden with his finger on the red button. Ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Where does Russia’s responsibility fit in all of this, asking for a friend.
 
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#25,464
#25,464
volgr said:
The serial number has been shown from on the ground photo's/video's. The actual serial number isnt in dispute. It also seems to match serial numbers from other Ukrainian launched Tochka's. At this point the chances this rocket came from Russia is very small.
Click to expand...

Ok. That’s interesting and certainly worth discussing. The problem is that your post did not provide any evidence of that. Surely some article actually provides the info you refer to in a way that can be verified. I would certainly be interested in seeing it.
 
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#25,465
#25,465
Gandalf said:
Ok. That’s interesting and certainly worth discussing. The problem is that your post did not provide any evidence of that. Surely some article actually provides the info you refer to in a way that can be verified. I would certainly be interested in seeing it.
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I mean if you can't trust a pedo who can you trust?
 
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#25,466
#25,466
Gandalf said:
Ok. That’s interesting and certainly worth discussing. The problem is that your post did not provide any evidence of that. Surely some article actually provides the info you refer to in a way that can be verified. I would certainly be interested in seeing it.
Click to expand...
Go read my post at 25420. It isn’t a serial number. It’s a mfg plant ID. The whole serial number propaganda has already been shown to be false. Again. Just like the rest of the clown’s bull ****.
 
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#25,467
#25,467
Shouldn't but I will...

Babylon Is Fallen
(Isaiah 21:1–10)

1After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory. 2And he cried out in a mighty voice:

“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!a

She has become a lair for demons

and a haunt for every unclean spirit,

every unclean bird,

and every detestable beast.b

3All the nations have drunkc the wine

of the passion of her immorality.

The kings of the earth were immoral with her,

and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy

from the extravagance of her luxury.”

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, My people,d

so that you will not share in her sins

or contract any of her plagues.

5For her sins are piled up to heaven,

and God has remembered her iniquities.

6Give back to her as she has done to others;

pay her back double for what she has done;

mix her a double portion in her own cup.

7As much as she has glorified herself and lived in luxury,

give her the same measure of torment and grief.

In her heart she says, ‘I sit as queen;

I am not a widow and will never see grief.’

8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—

death and grief and famine—

and she will be consumed by fire,

for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.”

Lament over Babylon

9Then the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her.e 10In fear of her torment, they will stand at a distance and cry out:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

the mighty city of Babylon!

For in a single hour

your judgment has come.”

11And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, because there is no one left to buy their cargo— 12cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, and pearls; of fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet; of all kinds of citron wood and every article of ivory, precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13of cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, and frankincense; of wine, olive oil, fine flour, and wheat; of cattle, sheep, horses, and chariots; of slaves and souls of men. 14And they will say:f

“The fruit of your soul’s desire

has departed from you;

all your luxury and splendor have vanished,

never to be seen again.”

15The merchants who sold these things and grew their wealth from her will stand at a distance, in fear of her torment. They will weep and mourn, 16saying:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet,

adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

17For in a single hour

such fabulous wealth has been destroyed!”

Every shipmaster, passenger, and sailor, and all who make their living from the sea, will stand at a distance 18and cry out at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her. “What city was ever like this great city?” they will exclaim.

19Then they will throw dust on their heads as they weep and mourn and cry out:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

were enriched by her wealth!

For in a single hour

she has been destroyed.”

20Rejoice over her, O heaven,

O saints and apostles and prophets,

because God has pronounced for you

His judgment against her.

The Doom of Babylon

21Then a mighty angel picked up a stone the size of a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be cast down,

never to be seen again.

22And the sound of harpists and musicians,

of flute players and trumpeters,

will never ring out in you again.

Nor will any craftsmen of any trade

be found in you again,

nor the sound of a millstone

be heard in you again.

23The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again,

and the voices of a bride and bridegroom

will never call out in you again.

For your merchants were the great ones of the earth,

because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.”

24And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.
 
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#25,470
#25,470
Rasputin_Vol said:
I don't think there is anyone in DC on either side of the aisle at this point that has shown a willingness to stand down. At best, we only ruin our economy for the next few decades. At worst, we get plunged into nuclear annihilation over some random country in Eastern Europe lead by an actor and with Joe Biden with his finger on the red button. Ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Whether America is involved or not the ripple affects us. Biden is a fool but quit pretending it is magically better if we weren't supporting Ukraine.
 
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#25,471
#25,471
Orangeburst said:
Shouldn't but I will...

Babylon Is Fallen
(Isaiah 21:1–10)

1After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory. 2And he cried out in a mighty voice:

“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!a

She has become a lair for demons

and a haunt for every unclean spirit,

every unclean bird,

and every detestable beast.b

3All the nations have drunkc the wine

of the passion of her immorality.

The kings of the earth were immoral with her,

and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy

from the extravagance of her luxury.”

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, My people,d

so that you will not share in her sins

or contract any of her plagues.

5For her sins are piled up to heaven,

and God has remembered her iniquities.

6Give back to her as she has done to others;

pay her back double for what she has done;

mix her a double portion in her own cup.

7As much as she has glorified herself and lived in luxury,

give her the same measure of torment and grief.

In her heart she says, ‘I sit as queen;

I am not a widow and will never see grief.’

8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—

death and grief and famine—

and she will be consumed by fire,

for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.”

Lament over Babylon

9Then the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her.e 10In fear of her torment, they will stand at a distance and cry out:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

the mighty city of Babylon!

For in a single hour

your judgment has come.”

11And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, because there is no one left to buy their cargo— 12cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, and pearls; of fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet; of all kinds of citron wood and every article of ivory, precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13of cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, and frankincense; of wine, olive oil, fine flour, and wheat; of cattle, sheep, horses, and chariots; of slaves and souls of men. 14And they will say:f

“The fruit of your soul’s desire

has departed from you;

all your luxury and splendor have vanished,

never to be seen again.”

15The merchants who sold these things and grew their wealth from her will stand at a distance, in fear of her torment. They will weep and mourn, 16saying:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet,

adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

17For in a single hour

such fabulous wealth has been destroyed!”

Every shipmaster, passenger, and sailor, and all who make their living from the sea, will stand at a distance 18and cry out at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her. “What city was ever like this great city?” they will exclaim.

19Then they will throw dust on their heads as they weep and mourn and cry out:

“Woe, woe to the great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

were enriched by her wealth!

For in a single hour

she has been destroyed.”

20Rejoice over her, O heaven,

O saints and apostles and prophets,

because God has pronounced for you

His judgment against her.

The Doom of Babylon

21Then a mighty angel picked up a stone the size of a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be cast down,

never to be seen again.

22And the sound of harpists and musicians,

of flute players and trumpeters,

will never ring out in you again.

Nor will any craftsmen of any trade

be found in you again,

nor the sound of a millstone

be heard in you again.

23The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again,

and the voices of a bride and bridegroom

will never call out in you again.

For your merchants were the great ones of the earth,

because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.”

24And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.
Click to expand...
Isaiah 3...

Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah
3 See now, the Lord,
the Lord Almighty,
is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah
both supply and support:
all supplies of food and all supplies of water,
2 the hero and the warrior,
the judge and the prophet,
the diviner and the elder,
3 the captain of fifty and the man of rank,
the counselor, skilled craftsman and clever enchanter.
4 “I will make mere youths their officials;
children will rule over them.”
5 People will oppress each other—
man against man, neighbor against neighbor.
The young will rise up against the old,
the nobody against the honored.
6 A man will seize one of his brothers
in his father’s house, and say,
“You have a cloak, you be our leader;
take charge of this heap of ruins!”
7 But in that day he will cry out,
“I have no remedy.
I have no food or clothing in my house;
do not make me the leader of the people.”
8 Jerusalem staggers,
Judah is falling;
their words and deeds are against the Lord,
defying his glorious presence.
9 The look on their faces testifies against them;
they parade their sin like Sodom;
they do not hide it.
Woe to them!
They have brought disaster upon themselves.
10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them,
for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
11 Woe to the wicked!
Disaster is upon them!
They will be paid back
for what their hands have done.
12 Youths oppress my people,
women rule over them.
My people, your guides lead you astray;
they turn you from the path.
13 The Lord takes his place in court;
he rises to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment
against the elders and leaders of his people:
“It is you who have ruined my vineyard;
the plunder from the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing my people
and grinding the faces of the poor?”
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.
16 The Lord says,
“The women of Zion are haughty,
walking along with outstretched necks,
flirting with their eyes,
strutting along with swaying hips,
with ornaments jingling on their ankles.
17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion;
the Lord will make their scalps bald.”
18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and anklets and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.
24 Instead of fragrance there will be a stench;
instead of a sash, a rope;
instead of well-dressed hair, baldness;
instead of fine clothing, sackcloth;
instead of beauty, branding.
25 Your men will fall by the sword,
your warriors in battle.
26 The gates of Zion will lament and mourn;
destitute, she will sit on the ground.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 2&version=NIV
 
#25,472
#25,472
I'm failing to see how a missile system produced in Russia by Russians and sent to bases across the former country prove this missile was used by Ukraine. There are so many different possibilities. Even if we were to be supplied with a list from Russia that would seem a little too convenient.

Take Russia's denial of even using this rocket in Ukraine when it has been shown that's a lie. When that lie didn't work I guess they moved on to it was fired from Ukraine held territory, which again is short of impossible to prove Ukraine did given the missile's mobility factor.

Russia has shown an historical and modern affinity for brutalizing their enemies. Rape is but another tool to bring the enemy to it's knees. If not at the order giving level it is undeniable at the field level. What's a missile to a train station to them? When Occam's razor is applied is difficult but to come to the conclusion Russia did this.

This doesn't mean Ukraine isn't corrupt, every government is to some degree. They certainly aren't innocent of war crimes from what I've seen. Particularly in how they treat Russian POW's and Ukrainian dissidents of Russian heritage. The issue is Ukrainian's are desperate, a desperation imposed on them by Russia.
 
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#25,474
#25,474
NorthDallas40 said:
Go read my post at 25420. It isn’t a serial number. It’s a mfg plant ID. The whole serial number propaganda has already been shown to be false. Again. Just like the rest of the clown’s bull ****.
Click to expand...

Ok, good info - basically, its more like a factory number of missiles produced in the soviet era that are being used by Russia, Ukraine, Syria and others. Doesn't prove Ukraine did it, nor does it prove Russia did it. I would suspect that each missile does have some specific individual serial but I doubt there is a central registry that shows who each was transferred to last.

Anyway, good info - that is how you at least put your point forward.
 
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#25,475
#25,475
Gandalf said:
Ok. That’s interesting and certainly worth discussing. The problem is that your post did not provide any evidence of that. Surely some article actually provides the info you refer to in a way that can be verified. I would certainly be interested in seeing it.
Click to expand...
This.
 
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