War in Ukraine

#18,501
#18,501
KB5252 said:
The people of Ukraine were but satisfied with their puppet Russian president. There were popular demonstrations, the government cracked down and hurt people. Ukraine wanted to align with the west, certainly at that point, and we assisted them. A replacement was put in his place and fast forward a number of years Zelensky won office and had carried out the will of most Ukrainian's.


Which part of that isn't true?
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Lies by ommision or just plain distortions.

You left out the part about the US creating a subversive opposition movement in the fall of 2013 based on Yanukovich's decision to turn eastward, followed by the Obama State Department working to plug in their hand picked leader that would be more favorable to their needs. You also left out the Biden and Kerry family's involvement in Ukraine after this time and their motivations. You also left out the US encouraging the Ukrainians to not abide by the Minsk II ceasefire in 2015 and even went so far as to have John McCain and Lindsey Graham going over to arm the Ukrainian Army in 2016/2017 when they were supposed to be abiding by the ceasefire.
 
#18,502
#18,502
Rasputin_Vol said:
You're showing you bias and not showing much logic.

If he really wanted to target civilian targets for the purpose of total conquest, there wouldn't be a building left standing east of the Dneiper River.
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Dumb logic. He’s killed innocent civilians but if he wanted to he could kill most of them all so it’s ok
 
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#18,503
#18,503
Rasputin_Vol said:
Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and just about any social media site that promotes a counter narrative than the Biden White House.
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Assange and Snowden weren't in trouble for being journalists. Their problem was in possessing and dealing with stolen information. There is a bit of a distinction.
 
#18,511
#18,511
Rasputin_Vol said:
They invaded in order to stop the conflict happening on their border against ethnic Russians/Russian people. In addition, they saw an increasing security threat in Ukraine where NATO was involved in pushing military assets into the region and engaged in weapons of mass destruction.
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OIP.VR0-Jpn_rAK1xP-JdEJEXAHaEK
 
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#18,512
#18,512
You redhats and so-called conservatives need to really think about why the Obama and now Biden Administrations have pushed so hard to get involved in Ukraine and to get this Iranian deal hammered out. If you all are going to allow them to play up on your existing biases and not smell a rat in these two deals, there's no hope for not just you all, but for the republic.

Whatever Trump did or didn't do, they had to get him out the way in order to keep some scheme going in Ukraine and Iran.
 
#18,513
#18,513
LouderVol said:
That's exactly what we did with Japan. We nuked two of their major cities after fire bombing their capitol to avoid the Russians having a chance to get a foothold.
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Not exactly the same. Have you read the story about how the Japanese Emperor managed to air the surrender message to the people? There was still a determined core of Japanese military officers who tried to stop the surrender message. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were basically to get their attention and tell the Japanese it was over. Yes, we did occupy Japan after WW2 - I lived there then and my brother was born there in 1948. My parents didn't have a problem with me at 2 and 3 years old being cared for by Japanese maids and spending time with other Japanese - I was apparently on the way to being bilingual by the time we left.

We had a very different way of occupying defeated countries than others do. Notice Japan and Germany are allies and have been for decades, as opposed to what happened in Germany only a couple of decades after WW1? Yeah, there is speculation we tried to rush things before the Russians could get into Japan; but as others have pointed out, it's unclear how logistically Russia could have actually carried off a major invasion of Japan. It's just as likely that the invasion of Okinawa really showed what invasion of Japan would be like, and we needed a show stopper to prevent that.
 
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#18,514
#18,514
Rasputin_Vol said:
You redhats and so-called conservatives need to really think about why the Obama and now Biden Administrations have pushed so hard to get involved in Ukraine and to get this Iranian deal hammered out. If you all are going to allow them to play up on your existing biases and not smell a rat in these two deals, there's no hope for not just you all, but for the republic.

Whatever Trump did or didn't do, they had to get him out the way in order to keep some scheme going in Ukraine and Iran.
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yes we all know they are corrupt and part of a worldwide cabal of evil but so is Putin
 
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#18,515
#18,515
luthervol said:
I'm not sure giving in to someone who says "do as I wish or I will commit war crimes and maybe go nuclear" is the best long term strategy.
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This is just weird agreeing sometimes with luther and our resident lawyers, and sometimes disagreeing with people I normally agree with. Apparently the Russians are messing with our heads.
 
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#18,516
#18,516
AM64 said:
Assange and Snowden weren't in trouble for being journalists. Their problem was in possessing and dealing with stolen information. There is a bit of a distinction.
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But journalists are allowed to be in possession of and deal with stolen information. In the case of Assange for sure it seems there is no distinction and the rub is that "legit" journalists don't want him to qualify as a journalist. I can't recall if Snowden stole the stuff himself or was given it by someone else.
 
#18,517
#18,517
AM64 said:
This is just weird agreeing sometimes with luther and our resident lawyers, and sometimes disagreeing with people I normally agree with. Apparently the Russians are messing with our heads.
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Well, the US apparently has a big ass red button to launch the nukes. As long as Biden doesn't mistake that button for the bidet button when he craps himself, I guess we'll be okay.
 
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#18,518
#18,518
volinbham said:
But journalists are allowed to be in possession of and deal with stolen information. In the case of Assange for sure it seems there is no distinction and the rub is that "legit" journalists don't want him to qualify as a journalist. I can't recall if Snowden stole the stuff himself or was given it by someone else.
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I believe Snowden stole the data himself.
 
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#18,519
#18,519
Rasputin_Vol said:
Your prior posts are not the truth. That was a coordinated coup by the United States in 2014.
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Unhu. Which is why Russia ended up with the land. Man the CIA is good. Tricked russia into invading Donbas, and Crimea. Also got russia to send spetnaz to go rescue the completely neutral president Ukraine had and made sure he had a nice russian villa to retire in.
 
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#18,521
#18,521
volinbham said:
But journalists are allowed to be in possession of and deal with stolen information. In the case of Assange for sure it seems there is no distinction and the rub is that "legit" journalists don't want him to qualify as a journalist. I can't recall if Snowden stole the stuff himself or was given it by someone else.
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Snowden stole the information. Assange is a bit different in that he didn't steal the information, but receiving property known to be stolen is still a crime. The issue in both cases isn't just that they held stolen material, but that the material is sensitive to the extent that it could cost the lives of others and jeopardize our security. I get the sentiment as somebody who has little respect for authority, but there really are secrets that need to remain that way.
 
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#18,524
#18,524
Rasputin_Vol said:
Gotdammit, you guys have no idea WTF you are talking about with regards to Syria. We went in there precisely to overthrow Assad (with the help of fellow NATO member Turkey).

Seymour M. Hersh · The Red Line and the Rat Line: Erdoğan and the Syrian rebels · LRB 16 April 2014




The adventures of a Libyan weapons dealer in Syria
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Your contention was the U.S. initiated the Syrian conflict; I responded how that is false. You'll note from the timeline that civil war began long before U.S. involvement. You made the erroneous clam of U.S. involvement in 2011 days ago to someone else, "gotdammit".

In addition, your link refers to the 2011 LIBYA intervention - also the timeframe for A. Spring in Syria - and notes:
Then with less than two days to go before the planned strike, he announced that he would seek congressional approval for the intervention. The strike was postponed as Congress prepared for hearings, and subsequently cancelled when Obama accepted Assad’s offer to relinquish his chemical arsenal in a deal brokered by Russia. Why did Obama delay and then relent on Syria when he was not shy about rushing into Libya? The answer lies in a clash between those in the administration who were committed to enforcing the red line, and military leaders who thought that going to war was both unjustified and potentially disastrous.
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Sounds like someone was sober in the room. You'll see similar sobriety in the full quote of your paragraph two. Do you think Hirsch is implying Obama knew the chem attack(s) were bogus and trying to go ahead anyway? That's not what he's saying.

Are you using some chem incidents in which Assad abstained as proof he didn't use chem weapons? More recent review than Hirsch's claim that's not true, and chlorine was Assad's weapon of choice:
https://www.gppi.net/media/GPPi_Schneider_Luetkefend_2019_Nowhere_to_Hide_Web.pdf

The U.S. coalition didn't intervene until Sept. 2014 to bomb IS and al-Nusra forces. In 2017-2018, Assad & ally forces were also attacked providing defense to SDF and NSA. You can argue from that angle at least an intent to inhibit Assad or cause his downfall.

The U.S. didn't initiate the Ukraine invasion either.
 
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