Would 6-6 be an improvement?

[OffTackleVol]

Thank you.

He is completely hopeless.

And there's far to many on here like him.

Agree LV and yes, there's way too many.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We can't climb out of obscurity and rebuild the program with a coach who can't win the games he should win. I keep seeing the "we can't rebuild replacing coaches every 3-4 years" line but nobody has been able to name a coach we fired too soon.

We fired Fulmer MANY years too late. He kept his fat butt in the room and is the root of what we've seen.

That generation is over. That STILL doesn't mean Heupel is "the one" but we'll get a better look at our coach without an AD mumbling crap behind him.

 

[sjt18]

And my expectation that JH won’t is based off the fact as his players came in UCF Got worse and worse and worse that isn’t debatable.

Yeah. That's debatable unless having multiple starters opt out last year meant nothing to the season. Last year was a weird year. The year prior UCF lost 3 games by a total of 5 points... and you are trying to spin THAT into proof of a decline?

You think he’s gonna succeed by beating out FAU for recruits?

No. And that would matter if that's where he recruits and we're having this conversation 3 years from now.

I have all the confidence in the world in his ability to coach offense. But to recruit and build a defense? 0 confidence.

And that has literally nothing to do with what happens THIS fall. But you keep piling up these layers of negativity and pretending that you have "facts"... when you don't. You have pessimistic conjectures.

 

[sjt18]

Agree LV and yes, there's way too many.

He's not THE most hopeful guy... but this is pretty dark for him.

 

[sjt18]

We fired Fulmer MANY years too late. He kept his fat butt in the room and is the root of what we've seen.

VERY glad to be able to agree with you. I acknowledge that I supported Fulmer getting his chance to turn things around. In retrospect, that was likely a mistake. Had UT had a competent AD at the time who did not live in awed fear of Fulmer... they could have seen the clear decline in quality of play following Cut's first departure. The ppg graph of Fulmer's years with and without Cut is incredible.

Fulmer should have been forced to fire Sanders or else to have been put on notice prior to 2005.

Fulmer's recruiting and especially on the LOS fell off sharply over his last few years. That's a big reason the hill was so steep for Kiffin and Dooley. Dooley didn't leave it much better.

That generation is over. That STILL doesn't mean Heupel is "the one" but we'll get a better look at our coach without an AD mumbling crap behind him.

IMHO and I could be completely and totally wrong... but I think Pruitt leaves him better than anyone has been left since Fulmer was fired. There isn't a ton of experience but there is talent with some development at every position except LB.

 

[sjt18]

Hopeless? I’m being realistic. Many of you regurgitated the same crap with Dooley, butch and Pruitt. Y’all ignore the red flags I choose to acknowledge them. I think he will be a good offensive coach, a bad recruiter and defensive coach.

No you aren't. Assuming the worst in every facet is not "being realistic".

 

[hog88]

We can't evaluate them for talent because they were poorly coached BUT we still know they're better than the other guys.

Based upon what? Stars? Performance? Coaching?

Turning poor coaching and bad habits and culture around takes time. Getting guys to buy in to a new coach takes time. Coaching requires personality and motivation but RE-COACHING the BS someone before you drilled in takes time. Unlearning and relearning takes time, new schemes take time.

Insisting: we have talent and they've squandered it for years is one thing. We had talent and helluva a lot of it LEFT this year. That's not on the coach.

I see you are in the water carrying mode already.

On paper we have better talent than at least 5 of our opponents and better than or at least equal to 3 more. Agreed?

Pruitt & company's poor coaching went beyond just development, it included bad schemes, bad utilization, poor assignments, poor play calling and bad teaching. So yeah it's hard to evaluate guys that were placed in the wrong position, not used, weren't used correctly so my response about not knowing who our best player is comes from that. Simply putting some guys in the right position/situation may produce some real studs. A good coach will be able to do that.

Teaching schemes, assignments and techniques to young men who have played football for the last 8-10 years isn't rocket science. A good coach can take what he has and defeat inferior talent with 1 off season.

 

[1974Vol]

let’s see, 8 home games, 4 cupcakes....yeah, 6 wins is a must

Many years I would agree...but now we are a cupcake too so it will come down to can a Big Orange Cupcake beat a Twinkie, Ding Dong or maybe a snowball? Its a toss up. But hey I'm on the Big Orange, Lane Train, Dooley Orange Britches, Brick by Brick, Cornbread Bandwagon, aright!! SO GO BIG ORANGE CUPCAKES!! I will be at or watching every game on TV, just like the rest of you. We started down this VFL trail of tears and there ain't no turning back now!

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

IMHO and I could be completely and totally wrong... but I think Pruitt leaves him better than anyone has been left since Fulmer was fired. There isn't a ton of experience but there is talent with some development at every position except LB.

It's really difficult for me to see the "Pruitt sucked as a coach" matched with "Pruitt left him better."

Pruitt left a dumpster fire of turmoil, transfers, and likely crippling NCAA issues. REGARDLESS of what talent Pruitt recruited: 1/3 of them are gone, many of them were ill-prepared for SEC competition, and recruiting from this point is tainted by pending visit, scholarship and bowl sanctions.

Heupel and White weren't done any real favors by Pruitt and Fulmer. None. What he left in talent is more than outweighed by what he left in crap.

 

[sjt18]

I see you are in the water carrying mode already.

On paper we have better talent than at least 5 of our opponents and better than or at least equal to 3 more. Agreed?

IMO, there are four "should be" wins. There are 4 games that look evenly matched. There are 3 likely losses. Then there is Ole Miss that I really can't figure out. One week they take Bama to the finish line... the next week they lose pretty handily to Arkansas.

People see them in light of their record. But up to Indiana, the opponents they beat had a combined record of 11-30. None finished with a winning record.

Ole Miss does score points though.

Pruitt & company's poor coaching went beyond just development, it included bad schemes, bad utilization, poor assignments, poor play calling and bad teaching. So yeah it's hard to evaluate guys that were placed in the wrong position, not used, weren't used correctly so my response about not knowing who our best player is comes from that. Simply putting some guys in the right position/situation may produce some real studs. A good coach will be able to do that.

Teaching schemes, assignments and techniques to young men who have played football for the last 8-10 years isn't rocket science. A good coach can take what he has and defeat inferior talent with 1 off season.

Agree for the most part. I actually think Pruitt and staff taught guys the basic skills well. His philosophy was passed by 10 years ago. The schemes and playcalling he demanded were all but hopeless in the modern game. He appeared to be a negative coach who didn't know how to pick a team up or make them believe in themselves. He seemed to be pretty low energy except when he felt personally threatened... and the team played that way.

So... I think route running may have improved while the timing and scheme didn't reward that skill. Tackling improved but was obscured by schemes that had guys out of position all the time. We will see.

 

[hog88]

IMO, there are four "should be" wins. There are 4 games that look evenly matched. There are 3 likely losses. Then there is Ole Miss that I really can't figure out. One week they take Bama to the finish line... the next week they lose pretty handily to Arkansas.

People see them in light of their record. But up to Indiana, the opponents they beat had a combined record of 11-30. None finished with a winning record.

Ole Miss does score points though.


Agree for the most part. I actually think Pruitt and staff taught guys the basic skills well. His philosophy was passed by 10 years ago. The schemes and playcalling he demanded were all but hopeless in the modern game. He appeared to be a negative coach who didn't know how to pick a team up or make them believe in themselves. He seemed to be pretty low energy except when he felt personally threatened... and the team played that way.

So... I think route running may have improved while the timing and scheme didn't reward that skill. Tackling improved but was obscured by schemes that had guys out of position all the time. We will see.

I think coaching takes the Ol Miss game out of the evenly matched category and I see 5 teams that should be in the "should win" catagory.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I see you are in the water carrying mode already.

On paper we have better talent than at least 5 of our opponents and better than or at least equal to 3 more. Agreed?

Pruitt & company's poor coaching went beyond just development, it included bad schemes, bad utilization, poor assignments, poor play calling and bad teaching. So yeah it's hard to evaluate guys that were placed in the wrong position, not used, weren't used correctly so my response about not knowing who our best player is comes from that. Simply putting some guys in the right position/situation may produce some real studs. A good coach will be able to do that.

Teaching schemes, assignments and techniques to young men who have played football for the last 8-10 years isn't rocket science. A good coach can take what he has and defeat inferior talent with 1 off season.

If games were played on paper, we weren't 3-7 last year. So yeah, some of that is coaching issues YET you won't give Heupel ANY slack for all the turmoil, turnover, and NCAA issues?

You want him to take over a dumpster fire no one else wanted and be a stud coach right off the bat? That would be great but you're JUST looking at talent on paper and not what the kids that stayed have been through. It's not like they're robots. They're closer to the Stokley incident, the transfers, the Beasley thing, the investigation, etc than us...... you think it takes no toll on performance?

I'm asking for realistic. 6-6..... a reasonable, win all the easy games, one of the toss up games and have a good showing in losses.

I'll be 100% with you if we're struggling against Tennessee Tech or Bowling Green. There's no excuse. If we lose to Vandy, I'm with you.

Jeez, though. You act as though: Pruitt and Fulmer are gone and all the problems too. No.... No they aren't.

 

[hog88]

If games were played on paper, we weren't 3-7 last year. So yeah, some of that is coaching issues YET you won't give Heupel ANY slack for all the turmoil, turnover, and NCAA issues?

You want him to take over a dumpster fire no one else wanted and be a stud coach right off the bat? That would be great but you're JUST looking at talent on paper and not what the kids that stayed have been through. It's not like they're robots. They're closer to the Stokley incident, the transfers, the Beasley thing, the investigation, etc than us...... you think it takes no toll on performance?

I'm asking for realistic. 6-6..... a reasonable, win all the way games, one of the toss up games and have a good showing in losses.

I'll be 100% with you if we're struggling against Tennessee Tech or Bowling Green. There's no excuse. If we lose to Vandy, I'm with you.

Jeez, though. You act as though: Pruitt and Fulmer are gone and all the problems too. No.... No they aren't.

Last year has zero bearing on this year and no I'm not expecting CJH to be a "stud coach" just a competent coach that can win the games he should win. (I don't believe he is)

 

[sjt18]

It's really difficult for me to see the "Pruitt sucked as a coach" matched with "Pruitt left him better."

I think he is a good teacher of the game, position coach type. He's had success as a coordinator. I do not believe he has the leadership or possibly the intelligence to be a HC.

I think he brought in talented guys. They decidedly upgraded the speed in the WR room. He left 3 talented, competitive QB's not including Salter. He was left only one option with talent and any kind of development. Jones was left one who was completely ill suited for his system. Dooley was left with ZERO QB's... literally. He didn't inherit a player who had ever taken a snap in practice or game for UT.

I don't know how good or bad they are if coached well... but I do know that the supposed "thin" DL has about 8 or 10 guys with SEC size and athleticism. Dooley was left one DT- Dan Williams.

Kiffin was left an OL group that would eventually start two former walk ons and an undersized TE at OT with a pain killer addiction. Dooley wasn't left any better.

Rather than go position by position... just go back and make an honest comparison by position group between what Heupel has been left and what was left to Kiffin, Dooley, Jones, and Pruitt. Particularly look at it from the same perspective we're viewing this roster. Kiffin had one real option at RB going into the 2009 season. Hardesty didn't have 1000 yards total in 3 years and had really bad knees.

There isn't a ton of experience but there is more talent and depth than was left to these previous coaches.

Pruitt left a dumpster fire of turmoil, transfers, and likely crippling NCAA issues.

The turmoil is a self inflicted wound if they allow it. The NCAA issues have no reason to cripple this year. Some of the transfers hurt... but most of those guys underperformed. Even so, the cupboard is not empty.

REGARDLESS of what talent Pruitt recruited: 1/3 of them are gone, many of them were ill-prepared for SEC competition, and recruiting from this point is tainted by pending visit, scholarship and bowl sanctions.

I don't think 1/3 of Pruitt's guys are gone. In fact I'm pretty sure of it.

It is a coach's job to prepare players. Not being a smart aleck but if Heupel is the right guy then he can take guys with more physical talent than the guy opposing him... and find ways to make them successful. I realize we haven't seen coaching like that for a while... but that's what it looks like.

Heupel and White weren't done any real favors by Pruitt and Fulmer. None. What he left in talent is more than outweighed by what he left in crap.

In terms of wins THIS YEAR which is the only thing they truly control... how so? Whatever the NCAA stuff turns out to be... it is future.

 

[sjt18]

I think coaching takes the Ol Miss game out of the evenly matched category and I see 5 teams that should be in the "should win" catagory.

Which way? In UT's favor or Ole Miss'?

 

[LWSVOL]

OK... how can someone predict 4 or 5 wins with so much newness within the program?

And there's a dividing line. Some assume that is a bad thing even after watching the last 3 years... and some see it as a possible good thing.

In a word.. yes. That's a coach's job. It is also a matter of how much you believe the previous underperformance was a function of coaching and schemes.

What position group on the offensive side has obvious depth issues as we sit here today? They don't have a ton of experience but they have talented bodies.

The DL has depth. Not sure about the quality. But there is depth. There's reasonably good depth at S though CB could be a problem. The edge rushers have little experience but look very talented. LB is an issue that will have to be coached around.

Would losing to UK who just lost their 10 best players by far such? Would losing to a middling or worse ACC team like Pitt suck? USCe has as many or more issues than UT... would it suck to lose to them too? Mizzou... what exactly do they have or have they done that makes expecting a loss to them "likely"?

Heupel does not inherit a championship caliber roster. He does inherit a roster capable of winning some games if well coached. There are four games that should be wins without question. There are 5 more that prove Heupel's ability as a HC. You are and others are saying that winning 2 of 5 would be "great". I disagree.

BTW, I don't let my emotions get off kilter. Win or lose, I just handle without overly joyful or depressed. Getting disappointed over something you have no control over is "no way to live", IMO

Seems you are choosing "depressed".[/QUOTE]

have not been depressed over the outcome of a football game for Tennessee since Alabama in 1990. Promise you, depression not an issue over football.

At this juncture, I would not be predicting any number of wins. Just view it as a waste of time until roster settles. Opponents rosters settle. Coaches determine who is going to play where. Of course, I've never made prediction until August even when I was confident on what roster looked like. Too much can happen between now and September

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

2020 had Jeremy Pruitt, Nieds, JG and Shelton Felton. 2021 wins by default

Neids was a favorite here for a long long time.

 

[hog88]

Which way? In UT's favor or Ole Miss'?

Ole Miss'

I think CLK will scheme CJH in the ground, I'm expecting it to be ugly.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Neids was a favorite here for a long long time.

Neids was a great recruiter (now we know why) but he was never a good coach. You combine him with Pruitt, Shelton Felton, Osovet (who has never held a D1, D2, or D3 job before UT), Will Friend, and a fired DL coach and you get what you got last year.

 

[sjt18]

If games were played on paper, we weren't 3-7 last year. So yeah, some of that is coaching issues YET you won't give Heupel ANY slack for all the turmoil, turnover, and NCAA issues?

Answering for myself... not this fall. The turmoil and even the turnover do NOT have to be a net negative on the field this fall. There is no team tighter than one that shares the same foxhole. "Us against the world"... is a pretty powerful thing.

The NCAA issues are out of his control and won't impact this season. Depending on what the sanctions are there may be some "slack" that needs to be given in a few years. But none of that means anything this fall.

You want him to take over a dumpster fire no one else wanted and be a stud coach right off the bat?

Yes. Great coaches get the most out of their roster. You could have predicted Dooley, Jones, and Pruitt after their first season. Each won at least one game than their talent was worth. The "right guy" will win at least what he "should" and better yet... more.

If you are OK with another coaching search in 3 or 4 years then excusing 4 or 5 wins this fall is where you should be. But when the right guy comes along... it won't be like that.

I'm asking for realistic. 6-6..... a reasonable, win all the easy games, one of the toss up games and have a good showing in losses.

.

All of that... and we essentially agree. I think this is a 6-8 win roster. IMO, the difference comes down to coaching but also some uncontrollable factors like injuries or lack thereof.

 

[sjt18]

Ole Miss'

I think CLK will scheme CJH in the ground, I'm expecting it to be ugly.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were ugly in either direction. I have a love/hate opinion of Kiffin. I think his coaching is also Jeckyl/Hyde. Sometimes he looks brilliant... and sometimes he looks incompetent.

 

[hog88]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were ugly in either direction. I have a love/hate opinion of Kiffin. I think his coaching is also Jeckyl/Hyde. Sometimes he looks brilliant... and sometimes he looks incompetent.

I think it will be a track meet for a 1/2.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Last year has zero bearing on this year and no I'm not expecting CJH to be a "stud coach" just a competent coach that can win the games he should win. (I don't believe he is)

If I'm carrying water, you're starting fires.

"I don't believe he is."

You've already made up your mind about him and that's fine. I'll wait. I believe Danny White isn't Phil Fulmer and I believe admin will put an end to the revolving door even if Heupel isn't the second coming of General Neyland.

If we're going to go forward, we're going to need stability MORE than each and every "must win" fans ridiculously feel they "deserve."

 

[vettefool]

Neids was a favorite here for a long long time.

Yep buying recruits gets you real popular real fast. Especially among the coaching legends that tell us how great every new coach is.

 

[sjt18]

have not been depressed over the outcome of a football game for Tennessee since Alabama in 1990. Promise you, depression not an issue over football.

At this juncture, I would not be predicting any number of wins. Just view it as a waste of time until roster settles. Opponents rosters settle. Coaches determine who is going to play where. Of course, I've never made prediction until August even when I was confident on what roster looked like. Too much can happen between now and September

You seem unusually negative.

I don't make ironclad predictions for those very reasons. As we sit today, I think UT has a 6-8 win roster against this schedule. If the "big" OOC game were against an OU then I would not be as hopeful. I think those types of losses early on can compound themselves against a young team.

That said... having watched some games and researched them a little... Pitt definitely ain't OU. They are a middling at best ACC team. I think the style match up disfavors them strongly.... again as we sit here today. I think UT has multiple WR's who can run by their secondary.