The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#754
#754
k-town_king said:
Easy stat padding gimmie rebounds.

Offensive rebounds are much harder to get and almost always contested.
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Yeah, if we're talking 1:1, that's valid but we're talking 4:1. Jordan was getting uncontested def boards, so why didn't he get 400 more than 4x?
 
#755
#755
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, if we're talking 1:1, that's valid but we're talking 4:1. Jordan was getting uncontested def boards, so why didn't he get 400 more than 4x?
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Bwahahah

10 seasons of at least 100 orbs and 310 plus drb.

He had 6 seasons with over 300 drb with over 100 orb plus his four over 400. 4 over 369.

He was a much more impactful rebounder., Definitely better his position and size and how the game was played. Now every decent wing averages 5.
 
#756
#756
k-town_king said:
Bwahahah

10 seasons of at least 100 orbs and 310 plus drb.

He had 6 seasons with over 300 drb with over 100 orb plus his four over 400. 4 over 369.

He was a much more impactful rebounder., Definitely better his position and size and how the game was played. Now every decent wing averages 5.
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They're both good rebounders for their position. When you're comparing GOAT wings, it's not really about comparing them against their position. That should just be a footnote. You should be comparing them against each other and what they brought to the table. Michael might even be slightly better at rebounding for his position...it's close enough that I don't care to argue that. The real question is if you want a rebound, who do you take? I take the guy who is bigger, stronger, just as athletic, averages significantly more per game, and will double the other guy in total rebounds. It's a no brainer. I mean, Lebron was averaging 8.6 rpg with Love and Thompson averaging 20 rpg combined. You act like he was stat padding, and maybe he was some years, but he almost always had good rebounders around him to contend with.

I don't argue that Lebron is a better passer for his position because that doesn't really matter. He's just a better passer, period.
 
#757
#757
What does "just as athletic" mean? Run fast, jump high, quick response time? I don't see MJ and LJ athleticism as being equal, though likely not measurable either.
 
#758
#758
n_huffhines said:
They're both good rebounders for their position. When you're comparing GOAT wings, it's not really about comparing them against their position. That should just be a footnote. You should be comparing them against each other and what they brought to the table. Michael might even be slightly better at rebounding for his position...it's close enough that I don't care to argue that. The real question is if you want a rebound, who do you take? I take the guy who is bigger, stronger, just as athletic, averages significantly more per game, and will double the other guy in total rebounds. It's a no brainer. I mean, Lebron was averaging 8.6 rpg with Love and Thompson averaging 20 rpg combined. You act like he was stat padding, and maybe he was some years, but he almost always had good rebounders around him to contend with.

I don't argue that Lebron is a better passer for his position because that doesn't really matter. He's just a better passer, period.
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He isn't a "better" passer. Just passes to stat pad at the end of games. His extra two apg aren't much when you look at how they play. Jordan had more flair and when he played pg he averaged double digit assists. He also has the highest non pg assist average for a Finals.

I would take the guy who gets way more3 orb because that means he is a tougher rebounder.

MJ averaged 6.6 when Rodman and Pip averaged over 21 rpg.

5.9 when the other two combined for 22.6
 
#760
#760
95 Vol Alum said:
What does "just as athletic" mean? Run fast, jump high, quick response time? I don't see MJ and LJ athleticism as being equal, though likely not measurable either.
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I just mean all-around raw athleticism. I can't say for certain they're equally talented in that department, but it's close enough that I don't think anybody can say one way or another. MJ had a quicker first step so he can go around you easier, but Lebron can go over and through you easier. They each had advantages over the other and no weaknesses. Both would grade high on basically every attribute you can think of.
 
#762
#762
k-town_king said:
He isn't a "better" passer. Just passes to stat pad at the end of games. His extra two apg aren't much when you look at how they play. Jordan had more flair and when he played pg he averaged double digit assists. He also has the highest non pg assist average for a Finals.

I would take the guy who gets way more3 orb because that means he is a tougher rebounder.

MJ averaged 6.6 when Rodman and Pip averaged over 21 rpg.

5.9 when the other two combined for 22.6
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He led the league in assists by "padding his stats." When MJ padded his passing stats, he was 10th in the league. That's how far apart their passing skills are.

Lebron passes more and better because it's more in his DNA. MJ's DNA is more in scoring. It's not a knock on either and it's not an advantage for either. It just is what it is. You might value scoring more, so TIFWIW. The nice thing for Lebron is he's shooting less and passing more with old age, which will help with longevity as pace increases across the league. MJ benefitted from a watered down, slow-paced league in the late 90's and his diminishing scoring skills were still enough to win it. all
 
#763
#763
n_huffhines said:
I would bet all my $ that Lebron's top speed is faster. I would bet all my $ that Lebron can reach heights that MJ couldn't.
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I think I’d take that bet on vertical leap. MJ could jump freakishly high.

I assume that vertical was what was meant. Clearly LeBron is taller and has longer reach to make up for the vertical gap.
 
#764
#764
95 Vol Alum said:
I think I’d take that bet on vertical leap. MJ could jump freakishly high.

I assume that vertical was what was meant. Clearly LeBron is taller and has longer reach to make up for the vertical gap.
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I specifically said "reach heights" because I'm accounting for his length. I would bet MJ has the better standing vert, but I do wonder about running vert, because Lebron can use the momentum of his weight there.

I think we could go attribute by attribute and probably come to most of the same conclusions, but I would be really interested to know who has the better long jump. No idea on that one.
 
#765
#765
n_huffhines said:
I specifically said "reach heights" because I'm accounting for his length. I would bet MJ has the better standing vert, but I do wonder about running vert, because Lebron can use the momentum of his weight there.

I think we could go attribute by attribute and probably come to most of the same conclusions, but I would be really interested to know who has the better long jump. No idea on that one.
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I think they are equal in the end if weighing out the "big man" (LJ) stuff vs the "quick man" (MJ) stuff.
 
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#766
#766
k-town_king said:
He isn't a "better" passer. Just passes to stat pad at the end of games. His extra two apg aren't much when you look at how they play. Jordan had more flair and when he played pg he averaged double digit assists. He also has the highest non pg assist average for a Finals.

I would take the guy who gets way more3 orb because that means he is a tougher rebounder.

MJ averaged 6.6 when Rodman and Pip averaged over 21 rpg.

5.9 when the other two combined for 22.6
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It's hilarious how some Jordan lovers refuse to give LeBron even an ounce of credit ever. Sorry, dude. LeBron is a better passer. He won a championship while leading the league in assists. Only 3 other guys have done that, and Jordan is not one of them.

And if you don't think Jordan was a stat padder, you need a reality check. When Doug Collins was the coach, Jordan stat padded like crazy. In "The Jordan Rules" it was mentioned that when Jordan went on that triple-double tear in 1989, often he asked the scores table for a box score sheet at the end of the 3rd quarter to see what he needed to focus on for a triple double. It got so bad that Tex Winter had to find ways to prevent him from doing it.

Phil Jackson also had to have a meeting with Jordan during August of 1990 to explain to Jordan that his stat padding needed to stop for them to win a championship. Phil explained that they were going to implement the triangle offense even more than the previous season and cut Jordan's minutes by 2 or 3. The meeting did not go well. Jordan was really pissed for most of the 90-91 season, as were several teammates, because of Jordan's selfish attitude. He finally started realizing in the playoffs how to trust his teammates, but that season as a whole was a wild ride. Read "The Jordan Rules." It is truly fascinating, and everything I wanted "The Last Dance" to be.
 
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#768
#768
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Jordan supposedly could run 4.4 or under in the 40.
I heard that in his 1st NBA year. I’ll have to google to verify.
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Hand timed, so significant margin of error. 40 isn't totally about top speed, either. Daniel Jones only ran a 4.82 40 but his top speed is fast.
 
#769
#769
n_huffhines said:
Hand timed, so significant margin of error. 40 isn't totally about top speed, either. Daniel Jones only ran a 4.82 40 but his top speed is fast.
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4.38 per Roy Williams when Jordan was a sophomore. When hand timing he may start late and also end late with the timing so I believe 4.38 was probably a good indicator of Jordan’s speed. Jordan’s too speed probably would be better in the 100 because of his build. Probably took some time for him to get up to speed. Probably was an All-Pro Wr. If he had chosen that path. He
 
#770
#770
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
4.38 per Roy Williams when Jordan was a sophomore. When hand timing he may start late and also end late with the timing so I believe 4.38 was probably a good indicator of Jordan’s speed. Jordan’s too speed probably would be better in the 100 because of his build. Probably took some time for him to get up to speed. Probably was an All-Pro Wr. If he had chosen that path. He
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A guy in my region hand-timed at 4.17. The papers printed that ****. I don't believe hand timed.

There are few guys that cover ground so fast that they just look different coast to coast....Lebron, Westbrook, Iverson..Jordan doesn't stand out like those guys to me, just going eye test.
 
#774
#774
KoachKrab127 said:
It's hilarious how some Jordan lovers refuse to give LeBron even an ounce of credit ever.
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I love MJ. Will always be the GOAT to me, but I grew up on the Bulls so am extremely biased. LeBron is great, though. His longevity playing at a high level will likely be difficult to surpass.
 
#775
#775
n_huffhines said:
A guy in my region hand-timed at 4.17. The papers printed that ****. I don't believe hand timed.

There are few guys that cover ground so fast that they just look different coast to coast....Lebron, Westbrook, Iverson..Jordan doesn't stand out like those guys to me, just going eye test.
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You must not have watched him in his prime.
 
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