The Official “Regular Posters of the Basketball Forum” Thread

[Dallasbowlin]

Just felt like owning post #5000. Boom!

Welcome to the club

 

[Matt2496]

 

[Yeiser10]

Miss that dude!

 

[VolsSportsFan]

A little over a month ago I was bummed because we were likley an NIT team.

Now....man I'd love to watch me an NIT game.

 

[Vols All Day]

 

[i2amavol]

Point Guard: Bone. Excellent player on an excellent team. Everyone is probably ranked correctly, left to right.
Shooting Guard: This one is tough. Brooks had the offense (before the 3 pointer, I think), but not the defense. I'll go with Lofton, because he was so clutch. Hard to not choose Edwards. He could have made a lot of 3's.
Swing Man: King all day.
Power Forward: Grunfeld. Ellis was better in the pros than in college. It is hard to pick against Williams, but I did.
Center: Johnson. He shot near 66% one year, I think.
Sixth man: Harris. Wish he had stayed longer. Jackson scored a lot of points, but he was the forgotten man. Turner had a lot of heart, but does not make the all-time team for me.

 

[cncchris33]

Point Guard: Bone. Excellent player on an excellent team. Everyone is probably ranked correctly, left to right.
Shooting Guard: This one is tough. Brooks had the offense (before the 3 pointer, I think), but not the defense. I'll go with Lofton, because he was so clutch. Hard to not choose Edwards. He could have made a lot of 3's.
Swing Man: King all day.
Power Forward: Grunfeld. Ellis was better in the pros than in college. It is hard to pick against Williams, but I did.
Center: Johnson. He shot near 66% one year, I think.
Sixth man: Harris. Wish he had stayed longer. Jackson scored a lot of points, but he was the forgotten man. Turner had a lot of heart, but does not make the all-time team for me.

Ellis was a 2x SEC POY.

 

[cncchris33]

PG - Bone
SG - Lofton
SW - King
PF - Ellis
C - Stokes
6M - Harris

That swing position is LOADED with talent, but no way you don't take King.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Allan Houston is the GOAT shooting guard (at least on the offensive end). He shouldn't be in the Swing Man group.

PG Woods/White
SG Houston
SF King
PF Ellis/Ernie
C Reggie
6 J Rich

 

[cncchris33]

Allan Houston is the GOAT shooting guard (at least on the offensive end). He shouldn't be in the Swing Man group.

PG Woods/White
SG Houston
SF King
PF Ellis/Ernie
C Reggie
6 J Rich

I thought the same thing.

 

[BruinVol]

Grant Williams says hello

 

[cncchris33]

Grant Williams says hello

A good option, but Ellis' college career and stats>Grant's.

 

[BruinVol]

A good option, but Ellis' college career and stats>Grant's.

You know I can’t say i recall that much about the early 80s but Ellis senior year the vols went 9-9 in the SEC.
Sure he averaged more pts than grant but from the looks of his win/loss record Grant made more winning plays than Ellis.

And Ellis never won more than 21 games while grant led his team to more than 25 wins in 2/3 years. That says a lot more to me they pts averaged.

I’d also venture a guess that the SEC wasn’t nearly as good in those years either.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

You know I can’t say i recall that much about the early 80s but Ellis senior year the vols went 9-9 in the SEC.
Sure he averaged more pts than grant but from the looks of his win/loss record Grant made more winning plays than Ellis.

And Ellis never won more than 21 games while grant led his team to more than 25 wins in 2/3 years. That says a lot more to me they pts averaged.

I’d also venture a guess that the SEC wasn’t nearly as good in those years either.

You guessed wrong. Every team was solid. Even Miss State had Jeff Malone and Miss had Elston Turner. Barkley, Person, Vernon Maxwell, Dominique, Dale Brown, CM Newton, Hugh Durham, Sonny Smith, Joe B Hall. There were no easy outs in the SEC.

 

[i2amavol]

Ellis was a 2x SEC POY.

Oops. My bad. It has only been 37 years since his last game in a Tennessee uniform.

My primary memory was that he wanted to shoot from the outside, but Devoe wouldn't let him. No doubt, he was a good player. Didn't he guard Ralph Sampson in the tourney, because we didn't have anyone else tall enough?

 

[The Dog]

Tony White (my personal all-time favorite Vol)
Chris Lofton
Allan Houston
Ernie Grunfield
Bernard King
Grant Williams/Dale Ellis

Basketball is more than less, positionless, now, so is my team

 

[The Dog]

Following the rules:
Watson
White
King
Ellis
Chism
Harris

 

[BruinVol]

You guessed wrong. Every team was solid. Even Miss State had Jeff Malone and Miss had Elston Turner. Barkley, Person, Vernon Maxwell, Dominique, Dale Brown, CM Newton, Hugh Durham, Sonny Smith, Joe B Hall. There were no easy outs in the SEC.

I know you think all things old are better but I didn’t guess wrong.

In 83 the year Ellis led the vols to a 9-9 record. The SEC had 4 teams in the tourney. A 3, 4,6 and a 9 seeded vol team.


In 19 the year Grant led his vols to a 15-3 SEC record the SEC had 7 teams in the tourney. The vols were a 2 seed, where the other SEC teams were 2,3,5, 7,8 and 10 seeds.


In 18 the year grant led the vols to a 13-5 SEC title where the vols were a 3 seed in the SEC tourney. There were 8 SEC teams in the tourney that year with seeds of 3, 4,5,6,7,7,8,9.

So yea the NCAA tourney was smaller in 83 but the seeds the sec had were higher in grants years and so was Tenn seed.

Sorry all things older aren’t better. The back in the day biased is real.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I know you think all things old are better but I didn’t guess wrong.

In 83 the year Ellis led the vols to a 9-9 record. The SEC had 4 teams in the tourney. A 3, 4,6 and a 9 seeded vol team.

In 19 the year Grant led his vols to a 15-3 SEC record the SEC had 7 teams in the tourney. The vols were a 2 seed, where the other SEC teams were 2,3,5, 7,8 and 10 seeds.

In 18 the year grant led the vols to a 13-5 SEC title where the vols were a 3 seed in the SEC tourney. There were 8 SEC teams in the tourney that year with seeds of 3, 4,5,6,7,7,8,9.

So yea the NCAA tourney was smaller in 83 but the seeds the sec had were higher in grants years and so was Tenn seed.

Sorry all things older aren’t better. The back in the day biased is real.

So you're now declaring the 2018 and 2019 SEC superior to 1983 because 43% of the conference had NCAAT invitations versus 40%? You were doing better by "guessing" that the SEC was weak in the early 1980s.

Again, EVERY program in the early 1980s was playing high level basketball. Many programs had their all-time greatest players on their rosters. The conference schefule was home-and-home, round robin. There was no ducking of teams like #1 NCAAT seed LSU twice per season. There were no easy games.

 

[cncchris33]

You know I can’t say i recall that much about the early 80s but Ellis senior year the vols went 9-9 in the SEC.
Sure he averaged more pts than grant but from the looks of his win/loss record Grant made more winning plays than Ellis.

And Ellis never won more than 21 games while grant led his team to more than 25 wins in 2/3 years. That says a lot more to me they pts averaged.

I’d also venture a guess that the SEC wasn’t nearly as good in those years either.

It just seems like to me that individual talents, abilities, and accomplishments should be considered in this kind of vote more than how the teams those individuals played on fared. Put Ellis on those teams Grant played for and he probably has more wins, too. If team success is a consideration, then Allan Houston has no business even being considered.

 

[BruinVol]

It just seems like to me that individual talents, abilities, and accomplishments should be considered in this kind of vote more than how the teams those individuals played on fared. Put Ellis on those teams Grant played for and he probably has more wins, too. If team success is a consideration, then Allan Houston has no business even being considered.

Sure it’s an “individual”
Type thinking that’s required but you can’t just look at points scored when looking at those individual skills. Grant did so many dirty work things that won games. Even taking the wins away from the thinking Williams was far better at rebounding, blocking shots and distributing to his teammates than Ellis was if you look at their stats. It has to be more than about scoring points and williams did it all far better than Ellis

 

[BruinVol]

So you're now declaring the 2018 and 2019 SEC superior to 1983 because 43% of the conference had NCAAT invitations versus 40%? You were doing better by "guessing" that the SEC was weak in the early 1980s.

Again, EVERY program in the early 1980s was playing high level basketball. Many programs had their all-time greatest players on their rosters. The conference schefule was home-and-home, round robin. There was no ducking of teams like #1 NCAAT seed LSU twice per season. There were no easy games.

It’s simple.
Look at the seeds. 18-19 had higher seeds than 83

and no every team wasn’t playing basketball at a high level in the SEC in 83. That’s ridiculous to say.

btw Arkansas and mizzu were dang good then

 

[i2amavol]

It just seems like to me that individual talents, abilities, and accomplishments should be considered in this kind of vote more than how the teams those individuals played on fared. Put Ellis on those teams Grant played for and he probably has more wins, too. If team success is a consideration, then Allan Houston has no business even being considered.

That is why I didn't pick Houston on my team. He was the (by far) best player on bad teams. He got to shoot a lot, because there was no one else.

I guess that is part of my bias against Ellis also. There is no doubt that he was a great player (the more I think about it), but that year they played Virginia, he (6'7") had to guard Ralph Sampson (7'4"), because we had no one else. How many points did he score because we had no one else?

I also think being a team player has a lot to do with it. Did Alan Houston run off other good players, because he wanted to be top dog (and his dad was the head coach)? I want players who play well with others, and want to hang banners. Again, no doubt that Ellis and Houston had talent.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

It’s simple.
Look at the seeds. 18-19 had higher seeds than 83

and no every team wasn’t playing basketball at a high level in the SEC in 83. That’s ridiculous to say.

btw Arkansas and mizzu were dang good then

You "guessed" that the SEC wasn't "nearly as good" in the early 1980s. You guessed wrong.

There are twice as many at large bids now.

Georgia had their only Final Four in that era. Mississippi had one of their only 2 SECT championships from that era. There were no bad teams. Every school had high level basketball programs.

 

[cncchris33]

Sure it’s an “individual”
Type thinking that’s required but you can’t just look at points scored when looking at those individual skills. Grant did so many dirty work things that won games. Even taking the wins away from the thinking Williams was far better at rebounding, blocking shots and distributing to his teammates than Ellis was if you look at their stats. It has to be more than about scoring points and williams did it all far better than Ellis

Okay, and Ellis was a better shooter, more efficient scorer, and got his hands on a lot more balls in play in the form of steals rather than blocking shots. Why did you gloss over those numbers?

And saying GW was "far better at rebounding" is considerably overstating your position.

Williams:
15.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.5 bpg, 0.9 spg 54% 2 pt FG%, 75.8 FT%

Ellis:
17.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 spg, 59.5% FG, 76.5% FT%

And this takes into account Ellis' freshman season when he wasn't the focal point of the team and only played about 20 mpg. Those numbers go way up if you remove that season.