Abortions and the bible.

#777
#777
Septic said:
Is the Old Testament really where you want to plant your flag?

There are many places in the Old Testament where God commands people to wipe out other people, including women, children, and even infants. Common examples include the death of the first born babies in Egypt when Pharaoh refused to release the Israelites (Exodus 11:1-10), the total annihilation of Sodom and Gomora which included the children (Genesis 19:23-29), God’s command to Saul to destroy Amalek including “both man and woman, child and infant” (1 Samuel 15:3), and throughout Deuteronomy God commands the people to destroy the people in the lands they will be invading (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18).
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I am merely supplying information on the subject. God can do whatever He chooses and we have zero say in the matter. It sounds pretty harsh to me. Folks like to get all worked into a lather over the passages you referenced, yet don't seem to bat an eye over things that go on in today's society. You seem to ignore the reasons God gave for what He commanded.

Since you brought up OT, let's look at these. Are these OK?
Ezekiel 16:20-21 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?

Psalm 106:37-38 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.

2 Kings 21:2-6
And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel. For he rebuilt the high places that Hezekiah his father had destroyed, and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them. And he built altars in the house of the Lord, of which the Lord had said, “In Jerusalem will I put my name.” And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

2 Kings 17:17-18 And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Amos 1:13 Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have ripped open pregnant women in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.
 
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#779
#779
luthervol said:
The tiny percentage is also anything beyond the fist trimester.
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4.8% are after 16 weeks. So roughly 94% of all abortions in the US this year are "Crap, I/we didn't take reasonable and readily available precautions and now I am pregnant. I don't want a baby."
 
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#780
#780
superdave1984 said:
You seem to ignore the reasons God gave for what He commanded.
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According to this thread, reasons for the rationalizing of slaughtered "babies" is nothing more than meritless partisan agenda foisting and definition twisting to excuse "murder."

In other words, it appears as if you're suggesting some reasons are OK, while others aren't.
 
#781
#781
Septic said:
According to this thread, reasons for the rationalizing of slaughtered "babies" is nothing more than meritless partisan excuses and definition twisting to excuse "murder."

In other words, it appears as if you're suggesting some reasons are OK, while others aren't.
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I am saying I am not God nor do I claim to understand everything He did or does. I suggest that God does what God wants without permission from anyone. I suggest He had and has a plan for all of creation He has and had reasons. The Bible is clear that man is not God and man has consequences for his actions.
 
#782
#782
mrmax86 said:
So?
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You were talking about ultrasounds and percentages. You or someone else was talking about mutilation and body parts.
Did you want to talk about the exceptions or the rule? Or both?
You can't claim that they are exceptions to support your argument and then claim that the fact that they are exceptions is irrelevant.
 
#783
#783
superdave1984 said:
This all revolves around each person's definition of "murder" and "child". We will not all agree on either.


Child
noun: child; plural noun: children
a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.

synonyms: youngster, young one, little one, boy, girl; More
a son or daughter of any age.

an immature or irresponsible person.

a person who has little or no experience in a particular area.

the descendants of a family or people.



Murder
noun: murder; plural noun: murders

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

INFORMAL
a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience.

verb
verb: murder; 3rd person present: murders; past tense: murdered; past participle: murdered; gerund or present participle: murdering

kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.



Legal definition of child:
This word has two meanings in law: (1) In the law of the domestic relations, and as to descent and distribution, it is used strictly as the correlative of “parent,” and means a son or daughter considered as in relation with the father or mother. (2) In the law of negligence, and in laws for the protection of children, etc., it is used as the CHILD 197 CHIROGRAPH opposite of “adult,” and means the young of the human species, (generally under the age of puberty,) without any reference to parentage and without distinction of sex.



Legal definitions of murder:

Murder occurs when one human being unlawfully kills another human being. See Homicide. The precise legal definition of murder varies by jurisdiction. Most states distinguish between different degrees of murder. Some other states base their murder laws on the Model Penal Code.

Common Law Murder
At common law, murder was defined as killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:

"Intent-to-kill murder"
"Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodily harm. For example, if the defendant fatally stabbed the victim, even if the defendant only intended to wound the victim, the defendant would still be liable for murder.
"Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
"Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.


So, it would appear that, legally, a fetus is a child. However, since abortion IS legal, it is not technically murder by some definitions. Unless you go with the common law definition.

I agree with the legal definition, especially "the young of the human species". I would interpret murder using the Common Law definition.

Argue away.
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To play devil's advocate, an unborn child has no age. We are not born 9 months old by the definition of law.
 
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#785
#785
Septic said:
yes, it.

That's not a slight, if there is an omniscient, omnipotent entity that transcends time and space - it'd be awfully presumptuous to assume its gender.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I can dismiss your opinion because this is crazy.
 
#787
#787
luthervol said:
I've experienced miscarriages from most every perspective a man can. In every instance it was not viewed as the death of a child but as a lost pregnancy. (None were past the 4 month mark)
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I have posted about Hope, that we lost in a miscarriage. It has been a couple years, but in a thread with TRUT, and other old school VN politics regulars, i have posted about my now 10 year old daughter Hannah, and the miracles that God performed. I will try to keep this brief, but its a lot to tell..

When my wife was pregnant with my daughter Hannah,she was about 5 months or so along, and my wife began bleeding profusely. We knew something was bad wrong, as it was our 2nd child. Rush to the ER, they did an ultrasound, and couldnt even find the baby. No way to see anything, bc my wifes uterus had completely filled with blood. The screen was solid black from blood, we could only hear her little heart beat at over 200 beats per minute. I can still hear that sound when i think about it. They couldnt tell her sex yet, but i knew it was my daughter. I had already bought a framed picture at the southern Christmas show that had her name, Hannah, and told what that name meant below it. It describes her perfectly to this day, and hangs in her room.

The doctors told us they were sorry, but there was nothing they could do. We should just go home, and in 24 to 36 hours my wife would "pass IT." Her body was aborting the pregnancy, and "IT" would be passed, naturally, from her body. My wife laid on the hospital bed, and every time this arrogant azzhole called my daughter "IT" she could see my whole head turn red and veins bulging out, she knew i was about to flip. He said "IT" for the 3rd or 4th time, and i said "if you call her IT one more time..." and my wife, who was of course weeping squeezed my hand and mouthed the word "please..". That was all it took, i shut up, but that little pencil neck doctor knew i was about to choke him to death. It was saturday, we left the hospital with a follow up at the OB early next week.

We went to church Sunday morning as usual, after being up most of the night praying and crying, every time my wife got up from the living room to go pee Saturday, which is about every 15mins for a preg woman, o thought for sure she was going to lose the baby, and waited on pins and needles until she returned. So we weather all that, go to Church Sunday, and myself. The Pastor. Her dad, and all the deacons anointed my wife with oil in front of the church folks, laid hands on my wife, and we all, as a congregation, begged God to intervene and save my daughter, to heal her when modern medicine gave up and said her life was over. After church we went to her parents house and i sat on the floor all day next to my wife on the couch. I rubbed her feet, held her hands, waited on her hand and foot, prayed a whole lot, and dreaded when she got up to pee every 15 minutes...all day...again.

Monday morning my wife and i went to the OB and got an untrasound. We were amazed. God did it. Gave us a miracle. My wifes uterus was almost completely clear from blood...and little Hannahs heart was still thumping away at 200bpm...she was a fighter, and we could hear our little girl in there fighting for her life. We rejoiced, and praised God, and cried, and laughed...the OB warned us though, it was likely to happen again, and if by chance the baby did make it she was very likely to have complications..heart problems, birth defects, downs syndrome, mental retardation, etc..we werent out of the woods yet by far.

About a month later...same thing happens. Same exact thing. The doctors again say there is nothing they can do. Leave my daughter for dead. "IT" will pass in a couple days. Same routine at church, except Wednesday night service, same follow up appt....and God did it . Again. Miracles not once but twice. Against all odds.

There is a problem this time though. They could see her on the ultrasound, confirmed she was my daddy's girl...but there were white spots on her heart. Spots in her brain, too...and it looked like her head wasnt proportioned right. The OB said it looked like downs syndrome was likely, and defects in the formation of her heart. She said that this was very likely in "problem pregnancies " and that we needed to be prepared for the challenges of a lifetime raising a child that would likely never be able to take care of herself. We needed to prepare for having a child that couldnt function like other people did, and we wouldn't know until after birth, but the heart defects could be fatal. and lead to a very short life...from minutes to years, but we needed to be prepared either way.

At this point, we were close to 7 months along if memory serves, and we had an option to have 1 more ultrasound or not. We decided not...we were gonna pray and leave it in Gods hands, and prepare ourselves for a life with a challenged child. We couldnt even bring ourselves to think about losing Hannah...just prepared ourselves to raise a child with Downs, etc...

Baby time comes, and my wife has a scheduled C section...i am in the delivery room, i held my beautiful wifes hand the entire time...stood over her watching ehat they were doing, i started praying before they started, and prayed aloud until the moment i went to cut the cord. Probably 10 minutes, the dr who delivered Hannah said it was the 1st time anyone has prayed for the ENTIRE time he delivered a baby. I got a picture of my Hannah halfway out of my wife's belly, just from her waist up...amazing.

I cut the cord, and looked at her...not a spot on her. Not even discoloration or redness, no weird shaped head, nothing...she was perfect. Absolutely beautiful just like her mama. I walked over and handed her to my wife..she looked at me in amazement...and said. " shes perfect. Perfect." We cried and cried. Not a thing wrong with her. Nothing. No health problems, no challenges, nothing. She has only made 2 Bs since she has been in school, and shes finishing 5th grade now.

God did it. Over and over...God intervened in my wifes womb. I saw the ultrasound, twice, filled with blood. I saw the last one, where the OB showed us the spots on her heart and brain, the weird head. I saw it all. I also saw God work a miracle. Her picture hangs on the wall in her OBs office. A miracle, my little Hannah. Daddys miracle.
 

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#788
#788
You are still forcing the host undergo a risk which they do not wish to embrace. You are telling another person that she has no choice but to become a mother. It is not something that the government should be permitted to do.
 
#789
#789
Septic said:
Sure it is, making laws to usurp the SCOTUS decision is a 'regulation', by definition. To that end Alabama looking to toss physicians in jail for providing safe, competent health care that has already been ruled on as legal by the highest court in the land is absolutely 'regulation'.

pay attention to that last bit.
Click to expand...
So what do we do with physicians in NY and VA then?
 
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#790
#790
marcusluvsvols said:
I have posted about Hope, that we lost in a miscarriage. It has been a couple years, but in a thread with TRUT, and other old school VN politics regulars, i have posted about my now 10 year old daughter Hannah, and the miracles that God performed. I will try to keep this brief, but its a lot to tell..

When my wife was pregnant with my daughter Hannah,she was about 5 months or so along, and my wife began bleeding profusely. We knew something was bad wrong, as it was our 2nd child. Rush to the ER, they did an ultrasound, and couldnt even find the baby. No way to see anything, bc my wifes uterus had completely filled with blood. The screen was solid black from blood, we could only hear her little heart beat at over 200 beats per minute. I can still hear that sound when i think about it. They couldnt tell her sex yet, but i knew it was my daughter. I had already bought a framed picture at the southern Christmas show that had her name, Hannah, and told what that name meant below it. It describes her perfectly to this day, and hangs in her room.

The doctors told us they were sorry, but there was nothing they could do. We should just go home, and in 24 to 36 hours my wife would "pass IT." Her body was aborting the pregnancy, and "IT" would be passed, naturally, from her body. My wife laid on the hospital bed, and every time this arrogant azzhole called my daughter "IT" she could see my whole head turn red and veins bulging out, she knew i was about to flip. He said "IT" for the 3rd or 4th time, and i said "if you call her IT one more time..." and my wife, who was of course weeping squeezed my hand and mouthed the word "please..". That was all it took, i shut up, but that little pencil neck doctor knew i was about to choke him to death. It was saturday, we left the hospital with a follow up at the OB early next week.

We went to church Sunday morning as usual, after being up most of the night praying and crying, every time my wife got up from the living room to go pee Saturday, which is about every 15mins for a preg woman, o thought for sure she was going to lose the baby, and waited on pins and needles until she returned. So we weather all that, go to Church Sunday, and myself. The Pastor. Her dad, and all the deacons anointed my wife with oil in front of the church folks, laid hands on my wife, and we all, as a congregation, begged God to intervene and save my daughter, to heal her when modern medicine gave up and said her life was over. After church we went to her parents house and i sat on the floor all day next to my wife on the couch. I rubbed her feet, held her hands, waited on her hand and foot, prayed a whole lot, and dreaded when she got up to pee every 15 minutes...all day...again.

Monday morning my wife and i went to the OB and got an untrasound. We were amazed. God did it. Gave us a miracle. My wifes uterus was almost completely clear from blood...and little Hannahs heart was still thumping away at 200bpm...she was a fighter, and we could hear our little girl in there fighting for her life. We rejoiced, and praised God, and cried, and laughed...the OB warned us though, it was likely to happen again, and if by chance the baby did make it she was very likely to have complications..heart problems, birth defects, downs syndrome, mental retardation, etc..we werent out of the woods yet by far.

About a month later...same thing happens. Same exact thing. The doctors again say there is nothing they can do. Leave my daughter for dead. "IT" will pass in a couple days. Same routine at church, except Wednesday night service, same follow up appt....and God did it . Again. Miracles not once but twice. Against all odds.

There is a problem this time though. They could see her on the ultrasound, confirmed she was my daddy's girl...but there were white spots on her heart. Spots in her brain, too...and it looked like her head wasnt proportioned right. The OB said it looked like downs syndrome was likely, and defects in the formation of her heart. She said that this was very likely in "problem pregnancies " and that we needed to be prepared for the challenges of a lifetime raising a child that would likely never be able to take care of herself. We needed to prepare for having a child that couldnt function like other people did, and we wouldn't know until after birth, but the heart defects could be fatal. and lead to a very short life...from minutes to years, but we needed to be prepared either way.

At this point, we were close to 7 months along if memory serves, and we had an option to have 1 more ultrasound or not. We decided not...we were gonna pray and leave it in Gods hands, and prepare ourselves for a life with a challenged child. We couldnt even bring ourselves to think about losing Hannah...just prepared ourselves to raise a child with Downs, etc...

Baby time comes, and my wife has a scheduled C section...i am in the delivery room, i held my beautiful wifes hand the entire time...stood over her watching ehat they were doing, i started praying before they started, and prayed aloud until the moment i went to cut the cord. Probably 10 minutes, the dr who delivered Hannah said it was the 1st time anyone has prayed for the ENTIRE time he delivered a baby. I got a picture of my Hannah halfway out of my wife's belly, just from her waist up...amazing.

I cut the cord, and looked at her...not a spot on her. Not even discoloration or redness, no weird shaped head, nothing...she was perfect. Absolutely beautiful just like her mama. I walked over and handed her to my wife..she looked at me in amazement...and said. " shes perfect. Perfect." We cried and cried. Not a thing wrong with her. Nothing. No health problems, no challenges, nothing. She has only made 2 Bs since she has been in school, and shes finishing 5th grade now.

God did it. Over and over...God intervened in my wifes womb. I saw the ultrasound, twice, filled with blood. I saw the last one, where the OB showed us the spots on her heart and brain, the weird head. I saw it all. I also saw God work a miracle. Her picture hangs on the wall in her OBs office. A miracle, my little Hannah. Daddys miracle.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your story. It brought tears to my eyes.


I will only say one thing, you guys really wanted Hannah and were willing to accept any risk to achieve that dream. What about people that don't want to accept that risk?
 
#791
#791
Septic said:
According to this thread, reasons for the rationalizing of slaughtered "babies" is nothing more than meritless partisan agenda foisting and definition twisting to excuse "murder."

In other words, it appears as if you're suggesting some reasons are OK, while others aren't.
Click to expand...
If we are positing that God exist then ONLY he can give or take life. God cannot murder as He isn’t human. Non sequitur.
 
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#794
#794
Roustabout said:
If we are positing that God exist then ONLY he can give or take life. God cannot murder as He isn’t human. Non sequitur.
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Isn't it strange to think that despite God's omnipotence, he ordered (1 Samuel 15:3-4 ) the humans to carry out his dirty work on the Amalekites? Can you imagine the torment and anguish they must have felt committing genocide?
 
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#796
#796
Septic said:
Isn't it strange to think that despite God's omnipotence, he ordered (1 Samuel 15:3-4 ) the humans to carry out his dirty work on the Amalekites? Can you imagine the torment and anguish they must have felt committing genocide?
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Still fishing I see..........
 
#800
#800
ClearwaterVol said:
You are still forcing the host undergo a risk which they do not wish to embrace. You are telling another person that she has no choice but to become a mother. It is not something that the government should be permitted to do.
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The host voluntarily accepted that risk when she consented to sex. At least statistically 99% did.

And, for the record, I agree with your statement that the government should not be permitted to make that call.

EDIT for correction of percentage. It is actually 99% not 94%. Statistically less than 1% of abortions in the US were to end a pregnancy caused by rape or incest.
 
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