He is not worth 5 million a year

[Frivolous]

To throw in my two cents, a lot of people decided years ago that Iowa overpaid their football coach, Ferentz. Perhaps - but in doing so, they secured competitive football. That's how I view the Barnes contract. His accomplishments say he's overpaid, but it was necessary to keep him, and we secured competitive basketball.

This is how I see it, as well.

Does Barnes deserve to be the third highest paid coach in the country? No. But if that's what it took to keep him from leaving Tennessee for a blue-blood program that was offering him more, so be it. Basketball is the only major sport that has given us anything to feel good about in a long time, and Fulmer had to do whatever it took to keep from having to start over again with yet another new coaching regime and the accompanying search (which UT is pretty much terrible at).

UCLA had to settle for Mick Cronin at $4 million a year. Barnes at $4.7M doesn't look as bad up next to Cronin at $4M.

 

[ukvols]

Farentz is the 17th highest paid football coach. The 17th highest paid basketball coach makes 3 million a year so basically not even 70 percent of what Barnes will make. Barnes was already the 15th highest paid coach so higher than farentz and we gave him a 2 million dollar raise. In other words Barnes salary pre-raise was 15. His best finish at Tennessee is the sweet sixteen- seems like he hasn’t even earned the original money.

When Ferentz first started making $4 million per season, it was a shocking number for his profession, given his accomplishments. I should have clarified that I was comparing Barnes to when Ferentz first hit $4 million and not to Ferentz today.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Going into 2019 there was a total of 6 coaches making a total pay over 4 million a year

Cal - 9.2
Coach K - 7
Izzo - 4.1
Bennett - 4.1
Self - 4.0
Mack - 4.0

Barnes & now Cronin are both in that group...Cronin was making 2.2, UCLA grossly overpaid there.

I mention all this, because I think you're about to see a few other names get new offers.

 

[cncchris33]

Actually paying Barnes, possibly more than he's worth, gives us a better chance to land a big hire when he retires. Stable program and an admin that will finally pay whats needed to sustain a basketball culture. Could even consider your Johnny Dawkins if he proves he can continue to win at a high level without a Tako. Stranger things have happened.

How this point fails to register with people who want to moan and complain about Barnes’ salary, as if it were taking food off of their own table, is beyond me. This is a good thing for Tennessee’s basketball future and level of commitment to such. The only way it backfires is if Barnes falls flat on his face and we have to fire him in 2-3 years, and that is without knowing what the buyout is on his new contract. Not much evidence out there that would suggest he is going to just suddenly torpedo the program.

 

[cncchris33]

Going into 2019 there was a total of 6 coaches making a total pay over 4 million a year

Cal - 9.2
Coach K - 7
Izzo - 4.1
Bennett - 4.1
Self - 4.0
Mack - 4.0

Barnes & now Cronin are both in that group...Cronin was making 2.2, UCLA grossly overpaid there.

I mention all this, because I think you're about to see a few other names get new offers.

Yep, just the nature of the business. Add Buzz Williams to that list, as well.

I remember when $2 million for a football coach was lunacy. That wasn’t all that long ago.

 

[Volview]

The market has its own oughts and worths.

On the surface, it's crazy to pay someone anything to teach someone else how to put a ball through a hoop.

 

[calban]

How this point fails to register with people who want to moan and complain about Barnes’ salary, as if it were taking food off of their own table, is beyond me. This is a good thing for Tennessee’s basketball future and level of commitment to such. The only way it backfires is if Barnes falls flat on his face and we have to fire him in 2-3 years, and that is without knowing what the buyout is on his new contract. Not much evidence out there that would suggest he is going to just suddenly torpedo the program.

I think those predicting a TANK next season will be surprised. he'll have more talent than he had in season one, a more experienced bench and could add a decent grad or 2 if B and W don't return. He's was written off last season and made the Tourney. i don't see him regressing.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

very unlikely we win 31 games with both Grant & Bone leaving.

But I'm also not hoping for 500 either...I think the players still on the roster are going to want to prove that UT basketball isn't a one trick pony.

 

[k-town_king]

I mostly agree with everything you've said...except I don't think Martin had as bad of a roster year 1.

Martin comes in and has 6 RSCI top 100 players, all of which came from Pearl's recruiting.
Trae Golden - #86
Jeronne Maymon - #73
Jordan McRae - #40
Cameron Tatum - #96
Renaldo Woolridge - #70
Kenny Hall - #62

From Pearl's last season 8 players remained for Matin's frist year. Of the ones that left only 2 didn't graduate and those 2 both declared for the NBA draft (Hopson & Tobias)
His top contributors in year one were Golden, Maymon, McRae, Tatum, McBee, Stokes, Hall, and Woolridge...Stokes was the only one Martin recruited.

Barnes comes in and has 2 RSCI top 100 players
Robert Hubbs - #22
Detrick Mostella - #68/#94

His top contributors in year one were Punter, Moore, Baulkman, Hubbs, Mostella, Admiral, Shembari Phillips....Admiral & Shembari were both freshmen Barnes recruited.

From Donnie's team only 7 remained for Barnes' first year. Of the ones that left only 2 graduated, Carmichael, Owens, and Woodson were all underclassmen that chose to transfer (might have been Barnes' suggestion too I don't know). Galen Campbell I think was a walk-on though not sure why he didn't remain on the team may have been a RS Junior and just graduated too.

Good point you are making. At least you have a valid argument.

It doesn't tell the whole story though. Most of those had failed to live up to their ranking and were already being considered busts. Woolridge was a transfer who was nowhere near a top 100 player. Tatum was mediocre. Maymon was a transfer who couldn't beat out Steven Pearl.

Also you didn't say anything about Juco All American and eventual All SEC player Kevin Punter.

Returning production.
CM
Tatum 8.8 Pts, 3.1 Reb, 2.3 Ast
Trae Golden - 3.0 Pts, 1.1 Reb, 2.2 Ast
Jeronne Maymon - 2.6 Pts, 2.8 Reb, 0.2 Ast
Jordan McRae - 1.8 Pts, 0.8 Reb, 0.0 Ast
Renaldo Woolridge -1.6 Pts, 1.4 Reb, 0.5 Ast
Kenny Hall-2.0 Pts, 1.8 Reb, 0.1 Ast

Barnes
Robert Hubbs - 7.2 Pts, 2.9 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Detrick Mostella - 3.4 Pts, 0.9 Reb, 0.5 Ast
Kevin Punter- 10.3 Pts, 2.1 Reb, 1.9 Ast
Armani Moore- 10.3 Pts, 6.8 Reb, 2.2 Ast
Derek Reese- 6.0 Pts, 5.3 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Devon Baulkman- 4.7 Pts, 2.3 Reb, 0.6 Ast

 

[cncchris33]

Good point you are making. At least you have a valid argument.

It doesn't tell the whole story though. Most of those had failed to live up to their ranking and were already being considered busts. Woolridge was a transfer who was nowhere near a top 100 player. Tatum was mediocre. Maymon was a transfer who couldn't beat out Steven Pearl.

Also you didn't say anything about Juco All American and eventual All SEC player Kevin Punter.

Returning production.
CM
Tatum 8.8 Pts, 3.1 Reb, 2.3 Ast
Trae Golden - 3.0 Pts, 1.1 Reb, 2.2 Ast
Jeronne Maymon - 2.6 Pts, 2.8 Reb, 0.2 Ast
Jordan McRae - 1.8 Pts, 0.8 Reb, 0.0 Ast
Renaldo Woolridge -1.6 Pts, 1.4 Reb, 0.5 Ast
Kenny Hall-2.0 Pts, 1.8 Reb, 0.1 Ast

Barnes
Robert Hubbs - 7.2 Pts, 2.9 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Detrick Mostella - 3.4 Pts, 0.9 Reb, 0.5 Ast
Kevin Punter- 10.3 Pts, 2.1 Reb, 1.9 Ast
Armani Moore- 10.3 Pts, 6.8 Reb, 2.2 Ast
Derek Reese- 6.0 Pts, 5.3 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Devon Baulkman- 4.7 Pts, 2.3 Reb, 0.6 Ast

Production is relative, though. In truth, they both inherited different scenarios.

Martin inherited more raw talent, they were just all young and rather inexperienced. Everyone listed above that he inherited was ranked as a 4* player.

Barnes inherited more production on the floor, but it was due to inheriting more experience, but less raw talent. Punter, Moore, Reese, and Baulkman were SRs, Hubbs a JR.

I’d still argue that from a talent standpoint, Martin inherited the two most talented individual players from either list in McRae and Maymon. Now, he and his staff had a role in exposing and developing that talent to the point they did. Barnes had a role in making Punter an All-SEC player, too.

 

[IPleadInsanity]

UCLA was in a bad spot made worse by the recent 3 SEC hires. You either bump Barnes or you takeover UCLA's bad spot. Suddenly you are the school looking for a top coach is a bleak market. I think they made the right move for a change, and that is surprising.

 

[1974Vol]

No one is worth that. There are homeless people and poor people all around us.

...and there would still be homeless and poor people all around us if CRB worked for free.

 

[zjcvols]

Fulmer had zero choice basically. Is Barnes overpaid? Absolutely. Should the new salary raise the expectations of the program and lead to better tourney results? Most definitely. But we were screwed either way. It’s easier to just pay $4.7M a year than find a new coach even if you’re willing to pay and the job is in a much better situation. I don’t blame Fulmer one bit.

I am curious what the buyouts both ways are now.

 

[cncchris33]

I think those predicting a TANK next season will be surprised. he'll have more talent than he had in season one, a more experienced bench and could add a decent grad or 2 if B and W don't return. He's was written off last season and made the Tourney. i don't see him regressing.

I’ve learned not to doubt Barnes until he gives me a reason to. He’s yet to do that. So I’ll roll with him.

 

[papatomany]

In his defense he doesn’t watch college basketball. He starts following around SEC tournament time. It’s hilarious seeing all these football fans try and sunshine pump basketball when you bear in mind the shitfit they threw about hiring schiano. Who frankly absolutely had a better resume than Barnes did.

You couldn't be more off base on that assessment. It's you guys who clearly don't start watching until tournament time. In fact, that's the case volarmy74 and zjcvols have been making. They're the ones arguing the the regular season doesn't matter. And Schiano's resume looks pathetic next to Barnes'.

 

[UTNoFear]

Yeah, lets fire a coach that or not retain a coach that moved UT back into prominence back into the conference. OP are you drunk or high? Most incoherent post I have ever read. The fan base base loves Barns..... What is your beef with him? You sir are a blight on the program and seek being a UK fan. If you are truly a UT fan and you cant see the progress then MOVE ON we don't need you!

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Good point you are making. At least you have a valid argument.

It doesn't tell the whole story though. Most of those had failed to live up to their ranking and were already being considered busts. Woolridge was a transfer who was nowhere near a top 100 player. Tatum was mediocre. Maymon was a transfer who couldn't beat out Steven Pearl.

Also you didn't say anything about Juco All American and eventual All SEC player Kevin Punter.

Returning production.
CM
Tatum 8.8 Pts, 3.1 Reb, 2.3 Ast
Trae Golden - 3.0 Pts, 1.1 Reb, 2.2 Ast
Jeronne Maymon - 2.6 Pts, 2.8 Reb, 0.2 Ast wasn't eligible to play until after the fall semester as a midyear enrollee, only played in 14 games at 9.1mpg
Jordan McRae - 1.8 Pts, 0.8 Reb, 0.0 Ast was a freshman on a deep team and only saw action in 10 games averaging just 5.3mpg
Renaldo Woolridge -1.6 Pts, 1.4 Reb, 0.5 Ast was not a transfer, was a Buzz Peterson recruit played in only 8 games and was injured on 1/5/11 and missed the rest of the season
Kenny Hall-2.0 Pts, 1.8 Reb, 0.1 Ast was pretty disappointing in his career...I'll give you that, but he only saw 7mpg in Pearl's last season.

Barnes
Robert Hubbs - 7.2 Pts, 2.9 Reb, 0.9 Ast of course he had higher averages, he played in all 32 games and averaged 24.8 mpg (5th most on the team) with Donnie. Starting in 20 games
Detrick Mostella - 3.4 Pts, 0.9 Reb, 0.5 Ast played in 31 of the 32 games and averaged 11.7 mpg
Kevin Punter- 10.3 Pts, 2.1 Reb, 1.9 Ast full on beast, and Barnes took full advantage but Punter was 2nd on Donnie's team in minutes played behind only Josh
Armani Moore- 10.3 Pts, 6.8 Reb, 2.2 Ast beast, was third on Donnie's team in minutes played
Derek Reese- 6.0 Pts, 5.3 Reb, 0.9 Ast 4th on Donnie's team in minutes played
Devon Baulkman- 4.7 Pts, 2.3 Reb, 0.6 Ast 14.7 mpg

Per game numbers are misleading, it's why I didn't mention them. The guys Martin inherited simply didn't play as much for various reasons and had lesser averages. Whereas Barnes inherited guys who saw a larger bulk of minutes while playing for Donnie. Punter, Moore, Hubbs and Reese all averaged 24 or better and played in every game. Baulkman and Mostella were the only two players that didn't see a ton of minutes, although both appeared in 31 games and each averaged at least 11 minutes per game.

Tatum & Golden were the only players that averaged more than 10 minutes per game with Pearl and appeared in at least 30 games.

I do think you make a solid point Barnes did inherit a more experienced team than Martin, I just don't know that I'd say it was better talent. What's crazy to me is I think that one year with Donnie did more to set Barnes back than if he had came in following Martin. Since Donnie's philosophy and recruiting were so much different than Martin & Barnes. Losing a few of Donnie's better recruits to transfer also didn't help (Owens, Carmichael, & Woodson)...if you're paying attention that's exactly ALL of the bigs from Donnie's team. Not a single true big was left for Barnes' first year, one reason Kyle and Admiral had to play as much as they did.

 

[08Vol]

How this point fails to register with people who want to moan and complain about Barnes’ salary, as if it were taking food off of their own table, is beyond me. This is a good thing for Tennessee’s basketball future and level of commitment to such. The only way it backfires is if Barnes falls flat on his face and we have to fire him in 2-3 years, and that is without knowing what the buyout is on his new contract. Not much evidence out there that would suggest he is going to just suddenly torpedo the program.

After 2015 there wasn’t much evidence that Butch was going to torpedo the football program, but it happened. Fans that are worried about the amount we’re paying see similarities to Butch. Bad first two seasons when there wasn’t much talent, average recruiters (Butch only looked good on paper), had a few lower ranked recruits grow into star players that carried the team, players behind those guys don’t look very good so a drop off will happen when they are gone, huge new contract by flirting with another school, team in position to win big games but failed on most of them.

When Butch got his contract extension and raise it came with higher demands from fans and the administration. He thought it was enough to just win bowl games and have winning seasons. He thought everyone was ungrateful and did his best to burn everything down on his way out. How will Barnes react when fans and the administration expect more than just winning seasons? What will happen when Barnes cites UT only making it to 6 Sweet Sixteens before he got here and under him we have now been to 3, even if he doesn’t ever win one?

 

[MoCo_Vol]

After 2015 there wasn’t much evidence that Butch was going to torpedo the football program, but it happened. Fans that are worried about the amount we’re paying see similarities to Butch. Bad first two seasons when there wasn’t much talent, average recruiters (Butch only looked good on paper), had a few lower ranked recruits grow into star players that carried the team, players behind those guys don’t look very good so a drop off will happen when they are gone, huge new contract by flirting with another school, team in position to win big games but failed on most of them.

When Butch got his contract extension and raise it came with higher demands from fans and the administration. He thought it was enough to just win bowl games and have winning seasons. He thought everyone was ungrateful and did his best to burn everything down on his way out. How will Barnes react when fans and the administration expect more than just winning seasons? What will happen when Barnes cites UT only making it to 6 Sweet Sixteens before he got here and under him we have now been to 3, even if he doesn’t ever win one?

Really, comparing Rick Barnes to Butch Jones? Seriously? You know how many college coaches have more career wins in the history of men's basketball than Barnes? exactly 21. 32 years coaching with a career 65% win percentage. Has taken 4 different teams in 4 conferences to the NCAA too.

To compare him to Butch Jones who reached double digits in wins just twice in his 11 years as a head coach is ridiculous man...

 

[PandamoniumReigns]

If we are comparing CM and Barnes, we have to compare the state of the SEC at the time also.

Also...did Barnes use TN resources and TN $$$ when he was being pursued by UCLA? Or was that exclusive to Cuonzo? Speaks volumes to character

 

[PandamoniumReigns]

How this point fails to register with people who want to moan and complain about Barnes’ salary, as if it were taking food off of their own table, is beyond me. This is a good thing for Tennessee’s basketball future and level of commitment to such. The only way it backfires is if Barnes falls flat on his face and we have to fire him in 2-3 years, and that is without knowing what the buyout is on his new contract. Not much evidence out there that would suggest he is going to just suddenly torpedo the program.

Bingo. Some folks want to argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[cncchris33]

After 2015 there wasn’t much evidence that Butch was going to torpedo the football program, but it happened. Fans that are worried about the amount we’re paying see similarities to Butch. Bad first two seasons when there wasn’t much talent, average recruiters (Butch only looked good on paper), had a few lower ranked recruits grow into star players that carried the team, players behind those guys don’t look very good so a drop off will happen when they are gone, huge new contract by flirting with another school, team in position to win big games but failed on most of them.

When Butch got his contract extension and raise it came with higher demands from fans and the administration. He thought it was enough to just win bowl games and have winning seasons. He thought everyone was ungrateful and did his best to burn everything down on his way out. How will Barnes react when fans and the administration expect more than just winning seasons? What will happen when Barnes cites UT only making it to 6 Sweet Sixteens before he got here and under him we have now been to 3, even if he doesn’t ever win one?

I just don’t understand why the best analogy anyone can make in protest of the contract is a football analogy.

Barnes has an infinitely better and longer track record of success than Butch Jones, so that comparison just doesn’t jive with me. Butch Jones was all talk and little walk. An equivalent football result would have been going 10-3 and 11-2 in seasons three and four, not 9-4 and 9-4.

I get that making that comparison helps to emotionally fuel your argument because EVERYONE universally hates Butch Jones, but it really doesn’t stack up. The two situations aren’t nearly as similar as you seem to believe. Rick isn’t Butch in any shape, form, or fashion. There is a chance of regression next season, but this team won’t go 10-21 and winless in the SEC. Recruiting is improving with 5* players Josiah James and Corey Walker over the next two classes. Basketball talent is a much easier fix, and Barnes is an infinitely better coach and developer. It isn’t just Grant Williams that has grown. Punter, Schofield, Bowden, Bone, Turner, Alexander...all improved to a degree under his watch.

Few will say that in a vacuum that Barnes is worth $4.7 million per year. But few are willing to risk the status quo on Johnny Mid-major to come in and replicate his results for $2 million less.

 

[08Vol]

Really, comparing Rick Barnes to Butch Jones? Seriously? You know how many college coaches have more career wins in the history of men's basketball than Barnes? exactly 21. 32 years coaching with a career 65% win percentage. Has taken 4 different teams in 4 conferences to the NCAA too.

To compare him to Butch Jones who reached double digits in wins just twice in his 11 years as a head coach is ridiculous man...

If college football had a 64 team tournament like basketball then Butch’s record would include taking 3 different teams in 3 conferences to the tournament. Butch has a career 62% winning percentage over 11 years. If Barnes was coaching football his 65% win percentage would be a 7-8 win season. Barnes was fired at Texas for being a good coach that couldn’t win many big games. Butch was fired at UT for the exact same thing. These guys have a lot more in common than people want to admit, and that is why some of us are concerned with making him one of the top 10 paid coaches in the country.

 

[JoAllan]

The whole thing is kind of dumb. I didn’t hear many constantly complaining Barnes was making, what 3.6. So 3.6 is ok, but to give 1.1 more to keep him and to know (along with recruits to know) he isn’t going anywhere is dumb? These people don’t understand business or athletics.

 

[calban]

If college football had a 64 team tournament like basketball then Butch’s record would include taking 3 different teams in 3 conferences to the tournament. Butch has a career 62% winning percentage over 11 years. If Barnes was coaching football his 65% win percentage would be a 7-8 win season. Barnes was fired at Texas for being a good coach that couldn’t win many big games. Butch was fired at UT for the exact same thing. These guys have a lot more in common than people want to admit, and that is why some of us are concerned with making him one of the top 10 paid coaches in the country.

We paid for the stability of the program. Replacing Barnes with another bargain basement hire could have been much more costly in the long run if he failed. With recruiting becoming easier with the stability Barnes has a lot better chance of handing the program over to a top hire when he retires.