Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

[KBVol]

Why is this even a debate? Its no longer in doubt and hasn't been for quite some time now, at least to impartial people. The single greatest attribute that Brady has, which no one has discussed, is his penchant for leading game winning TD drives in the fourth. He has more of those than Manning, Montana and Marino combined. The guy is the most clutch QB to ever play the game. Six championships are enough of a reminder. And yes, history will record him as the greatest NFL player ever, and it wont even be close, no debate.

All-time leaders, Game-winning drives

1. Peyton Manning - 54
2. Drew Brees - 48
3. Dan Marino - 47
4. Tom Brady - 44
T21. Joe Montana - 28

So, if my math is right.....it’s Manning, Marino, and Montana 129, Brady 44.

 

[volfannbama]

And? All we’re doing is pointing out that the Pats have won nearly half of those games with Brady playing poorly/well below average.

And again, Brady has had some great playoff performances. But when you look at his 13 worse playoff games, where he collectively threw 11 td passes vs 15 interceptions, the Pats are 13-0. That speaks to the team, the organization, the defense and the head coach being more important to winning in New England than the quarterback.

Ok

 

[sona]

I don’t even see why the GOAT title even matters and I don’t think the players care about it either. Brady means nothing to UT, PM is an institution here so who cares honestly. Just something for people to argue about that can never be determined anyway.

 

[Jax_Vol]

I don’t even see why the GOAT title even matters and I don’t think the players care about it either. Brady means nothing to UT, PM is an institution here so who cares honestly. Just something for people to argue about that can never be determined anyway.

I think that everyone who has posted in the thread has agreed that Peyton is the GOAT.

They are just discussing who is going to come in second place. Perhaps, Brady should be in that conversation. However, if Bud Adams/Jeff Fisher had drafted him, Brady would have played in under five playoff games.

 

[KBVol]

I think that everyone who has posted in the thread has agreed that Peyton is the GOAT.

They are just discussing who is going to come in second place. Perhaps, Brady should be in that conversation. However, if Bud Adams/Jeff Fisher had drafted him, Brady would have played in under five playoff games.

You may be right, but I honestly don’t fit into that category. I’m not arguing that Peyton is the greatest....as great as he was, he had some weaknesses. You could make a case for and a case against, I certainly get that.

All I’ve really argued in this thread is that enough evidence now exist to say the same thing about Brady, and then some. The more I’ve watched him over the years, the more I’m convinced a huge part of his success is the system and head coach he’s been so incredibly fortune to play in/with.....far, far more than any other qb in the GOAT QB discussion this side of Joe Montana.

And the fact that so many have piled on even further, saying that the Pats’ 6th Super Bowl win definitely, absolutely solidified Brady as the greatest......after how he played this year and this postseason.....that’s just ridiculous.

Brady is a piece, albeit a big piece, of the success in New England. But Belichick and his incredible system and culture is far more responsible for all that success....and the numbers bear that out.

 

[MikeVol44]

The ones that disprove his points.

You haven't disproved anything....

You drivel on and on about how Brady's advantages of having a better Coach and better defenses make Brady nothing more than a fortuitous QB in the NFL....i.e., being in the right place at the right time. NONSENSE!
You continually spout about how ANY of many HOF QBs could've led the Pats to victories over the last 17 years in your HOMERISH exaltation of Manning beyond his wages.

Manning led his team to an average of 15 points per game in his 13 playoff losses...and 6 of those 13 losses were against teams with Defenses ranked worse in SCORING than his teams.
And PM couldn't even manage to win playoff games at DOME when he did have the #1 and the #2 ranked scoring DEFENSES in the NFL for the COLTS versus the Steelers in 2005, and the Chargers in 2007.

So, even when Dungy provided him with the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE, he choked it away and couldn't win.

Simply stated... Brady, Fouts, Marino, Montana, Young, and Rivers could've taken those COLTS teams to MORE victories with the opportunities Manning wasted.

It is MANNING who is a SYSTEM QB.... There is NO DOUBT that PM is the SMARTEST QB to ever play the game. He memorized his receivers' routes....worked with them just about all year long to establish precise routes and timing on those routes...and he threw the ball to a SPOT in man coverages....

But any number of smart defensive coaches cleaned his plough, not just Belichik and the Pats.

 

[Guru37745]

By the numbers, he's not great as a passer.
Hold record for post-season Ints. at 34.

Also holds record for wins. Peyton was never a big game qb.

 

[615vols]

You haven't disproved anything....

You drivel on and on about how Brady's advantages of having a better Coach and better defenses make Brady nothing more than a fortuitous QB in the NFL....i.e., being in the right place at the right time. NONSENSE!
You continually spout about how ANY of many HOF QBs could've led the Pats to victories over the last 17 years in your HOMERISH exaltation of Manning beyond his wages.

Manning led his team to an average of 15 points per game in his 13 playoff losses...and 6 of those 13 losses were against teams with Defenses ranked worse in SCORING than his teams.
And PM couldn't even manage to win playoff games at DOME when he did have the #1 and the #2 ranked scoring DEFENSES in the NFL for the COLTS versus the Steelers in 2005, and the Chargers in 2007.

So, even when Dungy provided him with the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE, he choked it away and couldn't win.

Simply stated... Brady, Fouts, Marino, Montana, Young, and Rivers could've taken those COLTS teams to MORE victories with the opportunities Manning wasted.

It is MANNING who is a SYSTEM QB.... There is NO DOUBT that PM is the SMARTEST QB to ever play the game. He memorized his receivers' routes....worked with them just about all year long to establish precise routes and timing on those routes...and he threw the ball to a SPOT in man coverages....

But any number of smart defensive coaches cleaned his plough, not just Belichik and the Pats.

Lol manning a system qb? He went to a super bowl with 4 different head coaches. When he was injured, colts dropped to a 2 win team. On the other hand brady has had one of the goat head coaches his entire career. When brady was injured, freaking matt cassel goes 11-5 with the pats. When tom destroyed his phone and all, jimmy g and brisset qb pats to 3-1. All evidence points to the pats being able to plug in the next player and continue winning.

Also, if brady is the ultimate big game qb and manning is a choke in big games, explain mannings record vs brady in the afc championship game.

 

[jps2194]

You haven't disproved anything....

You drivel on and on about how Brady's advantages of having a better Coach and better defenses make Brady nothing more than a fortuitous QB in the NFL....i.e., being in the right place at the right time. NONSENSE!
You continually spout about how ANY of many HOF QBs could've led the Pats to victories over the last 17 years in your HOMERISH exaltation of Manning beyond his wages.

Manning led his team to an average of 15 points per game in his 13 playoff losses...and 6 of those 13 losses were against teams with Defenses ranked worse in SCORING than his teams.
And PM couldn't even manage to win playoff games at DOME when he did have the #1 and the #2 ranked scoring DEFENSES in the NFL for the COLTS versus the Steelers in 2005, and the Chargers in 2007.

So, even when Dungy provided him with the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE, he choked it away and couldn't win.

Simply stated... Brady, Fouts, Marino, Montana, Young, and Rivers could've taken those COLTS teams to MORE victories with the opportunities Manning wasted.

It is MANNING who is a SYSTEM QB.... There is NO DOUBT that PM is the SMARTEST QB to ever play the game. He memorized his receivers' routes....worked with them just about all year long to establish precise routes and timing on those routes...and he threw the ball to a SPOT in man coverages....

But any number of smart defensive coaches cleaned his plough, not just Belichik and the Pats.

Let's not let facts get in the way, but you are completely wrong. Manning averaged 24 points a game against the Pats and 27 points a game the last 11 times. He averaged 20 points a game in the playoffs against the Pats and one of those is a 3 point game. You do realize he has a winning record against the Pats in the playoffs, correct? I hardly call that as defensive coaches cleaning his plow.

To say Manning is a system QB is probably the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. Unless you mean he created a system, implemented it and ran it himself for two different teams and 4 different coaches that led to them going to the SB.

 

[MikeVol44]

Are you serious? To drive home the point even further that the Patriots haven’t needed Brady to even play WELL to win playoff games.

Let’s try this again......

Take Brady’s worst 13 performances in playoffs, where he threw only 11 TDs and 15 interceptions, with a beyond pedestrian 72 qb rating......the Patriots were 13-0. 13 of his 30 playoff wins, Brady wasn’t good, and it didn’t matter, the Patriots didn’t need him to be. This further cements the idea of Brady’s great fortune of playing under Belichick in that Patriots organization.

Look at this year....he threw 2 tds and 3 interceptions (really 4, if Dee Ford doesn’t line up offsides) in 3 playoff games and the Pats won yet another Super Bowl. Mitch Trubisky has a higher passer rating this playoff season for crying out loud.

Brady has had a great career, is a great QB, is a first ballot HOFer. But people are claiming definitively that he’s definitely the GOAT...hell, I’ve said it myself in the past....because of the phenomenal success and all those Super Bowl wins....and the truth is, they haven’t needed him to play even well, even average to win nearly half of all the playoff games they’ve won with him as their qb. To the contrary, the numbers say they’ve won at least 13 games DESPITE him being their qb.

Pretty elementary stuff.

NO, it's only elementary to a VOL ORANGE HOMER!

Brady's rating in 10 post-season losses is 79. He completed an average of 59% of his passes with 15 TD and 12 INTs. The Pats were outscored by an average of 8.6 ppg in those games.

Brady has had the better scoring DEFENSE in 27 of his 40 playoff games. He is 22-5 in those games.
Brady has had the worse scoring DEFENSE in 13 of his 40 playoff games. He is 8-5 in those games.
Brady has had a top 10 DEFENSE facing another top 10 scoring DEFENSE in playoff games 19 times. He is 15-4 in those games.

And even though Brady has had the better SCORING defense in 27 of 40 playoff games--he has still had to lead 12 game-winning drives in his 30 career playoff wins.

Manning's rating in 13 playoff losses is 76.5. He completed an average of 59.4% of his passes with 14 TDs and 14 INTs. His teams were outscored by an average of 13 ppg in those games.

Manning has had the better scoring DEFENSE in 9 of his 27 playoff games. He is 3-6 in those games.
Manning has had the worse scoring DEFENSE in 18 of his 27 playoff games. He is 11-7 in those games.
Manning has had a top 10 DEFENSE facing another top 10 scoring DEFENSE in playoff games 7 times. He is 4-3 in those games.

Manning has led 2 game-winning drives in his 14 playoff wins.

I suppose the ways to break the stats down are never-ending. And I also confess that the DEBATE will rage on and on.


I just know what I've seen on the field during the games.
If I had 80 yards to go to win the Super Bowl....against any SB team to ever play the game...

I'd pick Montana and his 49ers first.
I'd pick Brady 2nd.
I'd pick Elway 3rd.
I'd pick Big Ben 4th.

And I'd pick Manning a distant 5th.

 

[MikeVol44]

Let's not let facts get in the way, but you are completely wrong. Manning averaged 24 points a game against the Pats and 27 points a game the last 11 times. He averaged 20 points a game in the playoffs against the Pats and one of those is a 3 point game. You do realize he has a winning record against the Pats in the playoffs, correct? I hardly call that as defensive coaches cleaning his plow.

To say Manning is a system QB is probably the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. Unless you mean he created a system, implemented it and ran it himself for two different teams and 4 different coaches that led to them going to the SB.

No sir....you are wrong. I'm speaking of post-season games. Manning's teams scored 14, 3, 38, 26, and 20 points against the Pats respectively. That's a total of 101 points in 5 games...20 point average.

I don't know what you really mean by stating "...and 27 points a game the last 11 times."

Reading is fundamental....and doing research before opening your mouth would go a long way for you. Those 35 points Denver put up against the Ravens in 2012 were not all scored by Manning's offense. 14 points were scored on special teams while Manning was on the sidelines. And to help you out....Manning's teams only averaged 20 offensive points per game over his last 11 playoff games.

And I defined "SYSTEM" in the post you responded to originally. You pugs obviously FORGET that MANNING had only ONE OC while he played for Indy--Tom Moore. He was an adviser more than anything else once the Colts got rolling.

And he (PM) definitely implemented much of his same offense at Denver (under Fox) until Kubiak came on to change it up over his last few years. And Kubiak got him his 2nd SB ring.

I LOVE PM....He's a VOL...he's the BEST AMBASSADOR the game has ever had....but he just couldn't get it done when the playoff pressure was on....it's just a straight-up fact.
Everyone knows it outside of the VOLNATION homerism.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I think that everyone who has posted in the thread has agreed that Peyton is the GOAT.

They are just discussing who is going to come in second place. Perhaps, Brady should be in that conversation. However, if Bud Adams/Jeff Fisher had drafted him, Brady would have played in under five playoff games.

Not me. I contened there is no logical way to cement any single player as the GOAT. Brady and Manning are both all time great QBs.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

No sir....you are wrong. I'm speaking of post-season games. Manning's teams scored 14, 3, 38, 26, and 20 points against the Pats respectively. That's a total of 101 points in 5 games...20 point average.

I don't know what you really mean by stating "...and 27 points a game the last 11 times."

Reading is fundamental....and doing research before opening your mouth would go a long way for you. Those 35 points Denver put up against the Ravens in 2012 were not all scored by Manning's offense. 14 points were scored on special teams while Manning was on the sidelines. And to help you out....Manning's teams only averaged 20 offensive points per game over his last 11 playoff games.

And I defined "SYSTEM" in the post you responded to originally. You pugs obviously FORGET that MANNING had only ONE OC while he played for Indy--Tom Moore. He was an adviser more than anything else once the Colts got rolling.

And he (PM) definitely implemented much of his same offense at Denver (under Fox) until Kubiak came on to change it up over his last few years. And Kubiak got him his 2nd SB ring.

I LOVE PM....He's a VOL...he's the BEST AMBASSADOR the game has ever had....but he just couldn't get it done when the playoff pressure was on....it's just a straight-up fact.
Everyone knows it outside of the VOLNATION homerism.

You are boiling the game down too much to one player. Stop being disingenuous. Peytons TEAMS didnt get it done. This is where people just fail.

 

[jps2194]

No sir....you are wrong. I'm speaking of post-season games. Manning's teams scored 14, 3, 38, 26, and 20 points against the Pats respectively. That's a total of 101 points in 5 games...20 point average.

I don't know what you really mean by stating "...and 27 points a game the last 11 times."

Reading is fundamental....and doing research before opening your mouth would go a long way for you. Those 35 points Denver put up against the Ravens in 2012 were not all scored by Manning's offense. 14 points were scored on special teams while Manning was on the sidelines. And to help you out....Manning's teams only averaged 20 offensive points per game over his last 11 playoff games.

And I defined "SYSTEM" in the post you responded to originally. You pugs obviously FORGET that MANNING had only ONE OC while he played for Indy--Tom Moore. He was an adviser more than anything else once the Colts got rolling.

And he (PM) definitely implemented much of his same offense at Denver (under Fox) until Kubiak came on to change it up over his last few years. And Kubiak got him his 2nd SB ring.

I LOVE PM....He's a VOL...he's the BEST AMBASSADOR the game has ever had....but he just couldn't get it done when the playoff pressure was on....it's just a straight-up fact.
Everyone knows it outside of the VOLNATION homerism.

Uh, pretty sure I said 20 points in playoff games - talking about reading is fundamental. You said plenty of defensive coaches (including Belichick) cleaned his plow. That is not accurate and is proven incorrect by the facts. If you consider 20 a points a game in playoffs against the Pats (including a pathetic 3 in one of them) and 24 a game cleaning someone's plow, I don't know how to respond.

I don't need any help calculating stats - I said last 11 games against the Pats, not last 11 playoff games. Again, disputing your stupid and ridiculous biased comment that plenty of defensive coaches cleaned Peyton's plow.

Regarding Tom Moore, what's your point? So what, he had the same offensive coordinator while at the Colts, that doesn't make him a "system QB" as you indicated. Brady has had the same brilliant head coach for his entire career. It's a meaningless point.

Before opening your mouth, reading is definitely fundamental. The stats I provided were against the Pats only and has nothing to do with the Ravens.

Again, ignore facts. The biggest being Manning has a winning record against Brady in the playoffs but you seem to ignore that fact. You'll notice I'm not debating Manning is better than Brady or vice versa because I think it's a stupid argument that nobody can win. I'm simply pointing out that you made a false statement and I guess you can't stand being proven wrong by the facts so you resort to childish behavior and call people names (e.g., Pug). Grow up.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

I don’t even see why the GOAT title even matters and I don’t think the players care about it either. Brady means nothing to UT, PM is an institution here so who cares honestly. Just something for people to argue about that can never be determined anyway.

Good post. Agree. Brady means nothing to UT Why are we even discussing this clown on a vols site.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

NO, it's only elementary to a VOL ORANGE HOMER!

Brady's rating in 10 post-season losses is 79. He completed an average of 59% of his passes with 15 TD and 12 INTs. The Pats were outscored by an average of 8.6 ppg in those games.

Brady has had the better scoring DEFENSE in 27 of his 40 playoff games. He is 22-5 in those games.
Brady has had the worse scoring DEFENSE in 13 of his 40 playoff games. He is 8-5 in those games.
Brady has had a top 10 DEFENSE facing another top 10 scoring DEFENSE in playoff games 19 times. He is 15-4 in those games.

And even though Brady has had the better SCORING defense in 27 of 40 playoff games--he has still had to lead 12 game-winning drives in his 30 career playoff wins.

Manning's rating in 13 playoff losses is 76.5. He completed an average of 59.4% of his passes with 14 TDs and 14 INTs. His teams were outscored by an average of 13 ppg in those games.

Manning has had the better scoring DEFENSE in 9 of his 27 playoff games. He is 3-6 in those games.
Manning has had the worse scoring DEFENSE in 18 of his 27 playoff games. He is 11-7 in those games.
Manning has had a top 10 DEFENSE facing another top 10 scoring DEFENSE in playoff games 7 times. He is 4-3 in those games.

Manning has led 2 game-winning drives in his 14 playoff wins.

I suppose the ways to break the stats down are never-ending. And I also confess that the DEBATE will rage on and on.


I just know what I've seen on the field during the games.
If I had 80 yards to go to win the Super Bowl....against any SB team to ever play the game...

I'd pick Montana and his 49ers first.
I'd pick Brady 2nd.
I'd pick Elway 3rd.
I'd pick Big Ben 4th.

And I'd pick Manning a distant 5th.

Does Brady get his pats team? If not he’s not in my top 20 to get me 80 yards. You can’t dink and dunk your way down the field with any team.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

You haven't disproved anything....

You drivel on and on about how Brady's advantages of having a better Coach and better defenses make Brady nothing more than a fortuitous QB in the NFL....i.e., being in the right place at the right time. NONSENSE!
You continually spout about how ANY of many HOF QBs could've led the Pats to victories over the last 17 years in your HOMERISH exaltation of Manning beyond his wages.

Manning led his team to an average of 15 points per game in his 13 playoff losses...and 6 of those 13 losses were against teams with Defenses ranked worse in SCORING than his teams.
And PM couldn't even manage to win playoff games at DOME when he did have the #1 and the #2 ranked scoring DEFENSES in the NFL for the COLTS versus the Steelers in 2005, and the Chargers in 2007.

So, even when Dungy provided him with the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE, he choked it away and couldn't win.

Simply stated... Brady, Fouts, Marino, Montana, Young, and Rivers could've taken those COLTS teams to MORE victories with the opportunities Manning wasted.

It is MANNING who is a SYSTEM QB.... There is NO DOUBT that PM is the SMARTEST QB to ever play the game. He memorized his receivers' routes....worked with them just about all year long to establish precise routes and timing on those routes...and he threw the ball to a SPOT in man coverages....

But any number of smart defensive coaches cleaned his plough, not just Belichik and the Pats.

This is the most ridiculous post in the entire chain. I don’t think anyone had ever suggested that Manning is a system qb. To say that those other qbs would win MORE sbs than Manning is ludicrous. Maybe the same but more is just plain stupid. I could see Fouts Montana Montana and young winning as much because they were all pure passers. I see Brady and rivers winning less.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

This is the most ridiculous post in the entire chain. I don’t think anyone had ever suggested that Manning is a system qb. To say that those other qbs would win MORE sbs than Manning is ludicrous. Maybe the same but more is just plain stupid. I could see Fouts Montana Montana and young winning as much because they were all pure passers. I see Brady and rivers winning less.

Meant Marino. Not Montana twice.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

Also holds record for wins. Peyton was never a big game qb.

His TEAM won all those games. In spite of throwing 34 picks his TEAM still won many games.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

Lol manning a system qb? He went to a super bowl with 4 different head coaches. When he was injured, colts dropped to a 2 win team. On the other hand brady has had one of the goat head coaches his entire career. When brady was injured, freaking matt cassel goes 11-5 with the pats. When tom destroyed his phone and all, jimmy g and brisset qb pats to 3-1. All evidence points to the pats being able to plug in the next player and continue winning.

Also, if brady is the ultimate big game qb and manning is a choke in big games, explain mannings record vs brady in the afc championship game.

And keep in mind we aren’t talking about elite qbs stepping in and winning. Were any of those three qbs even drafted. I guarantee you that jimmy g. Is going to end up being a very average qb. For sf.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

Not me. I contened there is no logical way to cement any single player as the GOAT. Brady and Manning are both all time great QBs.

Absolutely. I don’t think anyone is saying Manning is the goat but Brady isn’t either. He is not far enough above the other greats to say so.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Absolutely. I don’t think anyone is saying Manning is the goat but Brady isn’t either. He is not far enough above the other greats to say so.

Agreed. I was thinking about Dan Marino the other day. IMO, Marino is the best pure passing QB I have ever seen. Look at what he did in 1984. 5084 yards and 48 TDs. In those days, undef those rules? I think that was even more impressive than Peytons record breaking 2013 season. Which brings up the questions. What could other QBs have done in differenet eras? Thats why imo, there can never be a GOAT.

 

[Cobb-Webb 1989]

I don’t even see why the GOAT title even matters and I don’t think the players care about it either. Brady means nothing to UT, PM is an institution here so who cares honestly. Just something for people to argue about that can never be determined anyway.

Peyton is not an UT institution in my book anymore.

He's a yes man for the Haslam's and you can't walk both sides of the fence.

He brought Butch in the door.

He even went with Haslam / with Curry over Fulmer. His own college head coach???

He took back everything that he said about Schiano in the NFL to stay in Haslam's back pocket.

@KBVol
Look up the QB's with he most 4th quarter / playoff game / comes backs.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Also holds record for wins. Peyton was never a big game qb.

PM was 3-1 v Brady in Championship Games.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Okay, ask Starr if he'd rather have those championship rings or personal accolades.

Like it or not, that's simply the reality; being the trigger man with rings on two hands matters. Manning has folded under that pressure while Brady has not.

Manning 3-1 v Brady in Championship Games.