The rich (Alabama) get richer

#51
#51
05_never_again said:
One of those close games (2016) was against a pretty good (#9) Vols team, remember?
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It was actually 2015 that was close. Still a pretty decent Vols team. They didn't lose again for the rest of the year.

2016 was maybe the best UT team in the past 10 years, and Bama beat them by the biggest margin in the continuous history of the rivalry.
 
#52
#52
bamawriter said:
It was actually 2015 that was close. Still a pretty decent Vols team. They didn't lose again for the rest of the year.

2016 was maybe the best UT team in the past 10 years, and Bama beat them by the biggest margin in the continuous history of the rivalry.
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Yeah sorry, meant 2015.
 
#53
#53
wmcovol said:
Hes a great practice field coach, great recruiter and his teams are ready for every situation but he is an average sideline coach. Add to it he has free run to hire anyone he desires at any time.

When he's in a close game with someone other than Ga, he's about .500. Even with a huge talent advantage.
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even Butch Jones almost beat him if Medley hadnt sucked so bad missing what 4 FGs that day ? Same with Kiffin - Lincoln sucked
 
#54
#54
508mikey said:
even Butch Jones almost beat him if Medley hadnt sucked so bad missing what 4 FGs that day ?
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That's a bit of revisionist history. Medley missed 3 FGs, but 2 of them were from beyond 50. Even for a really good kicker, those would be low percentage kicks. The 3rd was from 43, which is by no means a guarantee. It's not like UT was regularly driving into the redzone, only for Medley to shank chip shots.
 
#55
#55
05_never_again said:
No s**t. If he has the most talented team, any loss is to a less talented team.

I think the only way for some of y'all to admit that he's the best of all time would be for him to have gone 160-0 with 11 titles at Alabama, or for him to purposely recruit lesser-talented players and continue to win at this same clip.

He's won 86% of his games overall at Alabama (91% of his games since 2008), for crying out loud, and in some of those losses he was playing a team that didn't surpass him in talent but was equal or very close. If you think his coaching or development is nothing special, what do you think Butch's record would have been at Alabama if he had been there this whole time?
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You getting hurt feelings?

Strange how he has won a ton of games at a place that is the most conducive to winning and did not do so, MSU, at a place that isn't. Weird how that works.
 
#56
#56
bamawriter said:
He took a team that was mostly Shula players and went 12-0 during the regular season and was a quarter away from winning the SECCG. The next year, he took a team that still had a ton of Shula's guys, went 14-0 and won a ring.
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You mean in a sport with a 4 year turnover, in year 3 , he won the SEC? The math on how that works is fairly understandable. I don't remember Shula's recruiting but doubt the cupboard was bare.

The hizn and yourn point stands.

No other top coaches would fear Saban in a game with similar talent.
 
#57
#57
allvol123 said:
You getting hurt feelings?

Strange how he has won a ton of games at a place that is the most conducive to winning and did not do so, MSU, at a place that isn't. Weird how that works.
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Mich St was also on probation when he was there and inherited a team that went 0-11 the previous season. And it isn't like he was awful, he went 23-16-1 in conference play. Haven't all the best coaches of all time won at places "conducive to winning?"

Why didn't DuBose, Fran, and Shula win at an 86% clip and win ton of titles at Alabama too, if it is so easy some dope could do it?
 
#58
#58
allvol123 said:
Strange how he has won a ton of games at a place that is the most conducive to winning and did not do so, MSU, at a place that isn't. Weird how that works.
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Again, MSU was hit with pretty stiff sanctions right after Saban arrived. While that certainly made MSU "not conducive to winning", it would have been the same at any other school. Had Saban taken over Bama in 2003 he wouldn't have had the success that he has now, because Alabama wouldn't have been "conducive to winning" at that time. It's completely disingenuous to point to MSU as some sort of proof that Saban isn't an excellent coach. That's especially true since, upon recovering from the sanctions, Saban took the '99 squad to their best season in over a decade.
 
#59
#59
allvol123 said:
You mean in a sport with a 4 year turnover, in year 3 , he won the SEC? The math on how that works is fairly understandable. I don't remember Shula's recruiting but doubt the cupboard was bare.

The hizn and yourn point stands.

No other top coaches would fear Saban in a game with similar talent.
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Shula's recruiting classes:

2003: 41st (9th SEC)
2004: 21st (6th SEC)
2005: 16th (5th SEC)
2006: 13th (5th SEC)

Those aren't exactly elite recruiting classes. The point is that in 2008, he took a team chock full of Shula's players and almost won a national title. In 2009, he took a team with some of Shula's players and did win a title.
 
#60
#60
allvol123 said:
You mean in a sport with a 4 year turnover, in year 3 , he won the SEC? The math on how that works is fairly understandable. I don't remember Shula's recruiting but doubt the cupboard was bare.

The hizn and yourn point stands.

No other top coaches would fear Saban in a game with similar talent.
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The top coaches all have similar talent. There are 3 active coaches with national championships on their resume, and Saban is 6-3 against them. There are another 3 with title game appearances, and Saban is 7-2 against them. That's 13-5 against the guys who've reached the pinnacle of the sport.
 
#61
#61
bamawriter said:
The top coaches all have similar talent. There are 3 active coaches with national championships on their resume, and Saban is 6-3 against them. There are another 3 with title game appearances, and Saban is 7-2 against them. That's 13-5 against the guys who've reached the pinnacle of the sport.
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Similar frontline talent, yes. One thing Saban's teams always have that other even elite teams don't is the level of depth.

Regardless, this notion that he's just an ace recruiter and is just an average (or worse) coach is absolutely stupid. It just isn't borne out by any statistic. Just replace Saban with another coach who is known to be an average at best coach...take some other SEC coaches who have been fired like Butch Jones, Kevin Sumlin, or McElwain. Would any of those guys win 86% of their conference games over a 12-year stretch, with 6 SEC titles and 5 national titles? You can argue that Sumlin or McElwain might have won an SEC title, but I think they always miss out on a national title, and Butch probably wouldn't even win a division title because he'd blow 2-3 games a year via game day coaching mistakes.
 
#65
#65
bamawriter said:
Again, MSU was hit with pretty stiff sanctions right after Saban arrived. While that certainly made MSU "not conducive to winning", it would have been the same at any other school. Had Saban taken over Bama in 2003 he wouldn't have had the success that he has now, because Alabama wouldn't have been "conducive to winning" at that time. It's completely disingenuous to point to MSU as some sort of proof that Saban isn't an excellent coach. That's especially true since, upon recovering from the sanctions, Saban took the '99 squad to their best season in over a decade.
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I never said he isn't an excellent coach. Recruiting is a major part of college coaching and he nails that, at a place where nailing it is very possible. He may be the best recruiter ever.

In terms of coaching, as in sideline game day and development, I don't give him the automatic pass to best ever. He literally plays 2-3 games a year where the other team has enough talent to compete and even in some of those cases it still might be a stretch.
 
#66
#66
05_never_again said:
Shula's recruiting classes:

2003: 41st (9th SEC)
2004: 21st (6th SEC)
2005: 16th (5th SEC)
2006: 13th (5th SEC)

Those aren't exactly elite recruiting classes. The point is that in 2008, he took a team chock full of Shula's players and almost won a national title. In 2009, he took a team with some of Shula's players and did win a title.
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Not elite, but 13th isn't bare bones. That is essentially a top 3rd conference class considering the subjectivity of classes past a certain point.
 
#67
#67
allvol123 said:
Not elite, but 13th isn't bare bones. That is essentially a top 3rd conference class considering the subjectivity of classes past a certain point.
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5th in the SEC is not top third. That 2006 class were just sophomores in Saban's first year. The bulk of the team was made up of recruiting classes that were 5th and 6th in a then 12-team SEC. Those aren't exactly national title-caliber classes. They were mid-level, perhaps a smidge better than mid-level, within his own conference. He almost won a national title with those guys.

He literally plays 2-3 games a year where the other team has enough talent to compete and even in some of those cases it still might be a stretch.
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29-9 against AP top 10 teams according to @bamawriter. A top 10 team is a pretty good approximation of a team that has enough talent to compete, and he has beaten those teams 76% of the time.

I don't understand the point of that argument anyway. What else is he supposed to do - intentionally recruit less-talented guys and win with them to prove he can outscheme people too? Recruiting is the lifeblood of college football. If you stink at recruiting, either on a relative or absolute basis, you aren't going to meet or exceed anyone's expectations. You talk about recruiting as if it is something he does to bail out the fact that he is an average coach.

I have no way to prove this, but I can envision Saban winning national titles, or at least SEC titles, with Tennessee's 2015 and 2016 teams. Even Butch, as flawed as he was, was a couple plays away from 10-2 with that 2015 team. He's an incredible recruiter, the best the sport has ever seen, an incredible developer of talent, and at least relative to other college coaches a great gameday coach.
 
#69
#69
05_never_again said:
5th in the SEC is not top third. That 2006 class were just sophomores in Saban's first year. The bulk of the team was made up of recruiting classes that were 5th and 6th in a then 12-team SEC. Those aren't exactly national title-caliber classes. They were mid-level, perhaps a smidge better than mid-level, within his own conference. He almost won a national title with those guys.


29-9 against AP top 10 teams according to @bamawriter. A top 10 team is a pretty good approximation of a team that has enough talent to compete, and he has beaten those teams 76% of the time.

I don't understand the point of that argument anyway. What else is he supposed to do - intentionally recruit less-talented guys and win with them to prove he can outscheme people too? Recruiting is the lifeblood of college football. If you stink at recruiting, either on a relative or absolute basis, you aren't going to meet or exceed anyone's expectations. You talk about recruiting as if it is something he does to bail out the fact that he is an average coach.

I have no way to prove this, but I can envision Saban winning national titles, or at least SEC titles, with Tennessee's 2015 and 2016 teams. Even Butch, as flawed as he was, was a couple plays away from 10-2 with that 2015 team. He's an incredible recruiter, the best the sport has ever seen, an incredible developer of talent, and at least relative to other college coaches a great gameday coach.
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I quit at a "a top 10 team is a pretty good approximation of team that has enough talent to compete."

That is laughable. Their are about 4 extremely talented teams every year with Bama annually being a pretty good head and shoulders above even the 4th team talent wise. There is no way the 10th team has enough.

Clemson, GA, and maybe OSU are the only ones that come close to them in talent this year. Any game they play besides these is a complete mismatch.
 
#70
#70
bamawriter said:
For some context: Bryant went 28-17 at Bama. Neyland went 9-7 at Tennessee. Spurrier went 18-17-1 at Florida.
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Thanks. That just feeds my talent argument. Because it is absurd to see those records and then see Saban's and not understand the point.
 
#73
#73
allvol123 said:
Thanks. That just feeds my talent argument. Because it is absurd to see those records and then see Saban's and not understand the point.
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So, you compare these records to Saban's, and your conclusion is that he's not a better coach than them because his record is so much better?
 
#74
#74
BigOrangeTrain said:
He built that team. Recruiting is a part of coaching. What he has done is unprecedented. No disrespect but to call Saban anything othervthan the GOAT is insane. Only a TN fan could say such things.
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he didn't build that! oh wait...that's another speech.....sorry
 
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#75
#75
bamawriter said:
So, you compare these records to Saban's, and your conclusion is that he's not a better coach than them because his record is so much better?
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I hope he doesn't pull a muscle tying himself into all these knots.

Bryant, Neyland, and Spurrier also quite frequently had teams way more talented than their opponents, probably even more often than Saban does. Yet those guys' records against top 10 teams isn't anywhere near as good.

If you look at the top 10 teams Alabama has played over the years, you can cherry pick a team that ended the season outside the top 10 and say that really wasn't a top 10 team. 2012 Michigan is a great example. Alabama played them in the season opener and they were #8; they finished 8-5 and ranked #24th. That's one of Saban's 29 wins against a top 10 team. That's the exception, not the rule.

Also, if you don't think that Texas A&M, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, and LSU teams ranked in the top 10 have anything in the tank to allow them to even compete with Alabama, then you are selling those teams short in order to make it fit your argument.
 
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