The rich (Alabama) get richer

[05_never_again]

Yeah I don’t get The “he has more talent than everyone else” argument. Should we discount what Coach K or John Wooden accomplished, because they had more talent than just about everyone.

I think it is just a hot take, Skip Bayless-type comment designed mostly to get attention. It gets attention when you say that this gigantic figure in the sport is overrated or just a good recruiter, not a coach.

In the case of Saban, the argument is amplified because he went 15-17 in the NFL, where the talent differential between good teams and bad teams is pretty thin. That's supposedly evidence he can't outscheme anyone and just relies on having more talent to beat people. It also could be evidence of a generally incompetent front office in Miami, which existed before Saban, while Saban was there, and after Saban. He had no roster control in Miami if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure what Saban is supposed to do to "remedy" this knock on himself, though. Recruit lesser-talented kids on purpose and win just as much with them? Saban is an incredible recruiter - I wouldn't disagree for a second with the notion that recruiting is the foundation and single biggest reason for his success. However, if he was just an average coach, I'm not sure he wins a single national title, much less 6, and he probably would have gotten fired from Alabama already for pulling in multiple #1 recruiting classes but losing a couple games a year that he shouldn't.

 

[bamawriter]

Yeah I don’t get The “he has more talent than everyone else” argument.

It's a genuinely dumb argument, because recruiting is the single most important thing a college coach does. It's the foundation for everything. You can be a wizard when it comes to creating a game plan and making adjustments, but if you don't have the players, you won't be winning any titles.

 

[05_never_again]

It's a genuinely dumb argument, because recruiting is the single most important thing a college coach does. It's the foundation for everything. You can be a wizard when it comes to creating a game plan and making adjustments, but if you don't have the players, you won't be winning any titles.

A really funny "argument" I've seen trotted out is "Well, if Saban had the 25th ranked recruiting class every year, he wouldn't win any titles." No s**t Sherlock. And of course, it is always said as if these top recruiting classes just fall into Saban's lap with him having to do nothing to acquire to them. The implication that recruiting takes no skill, or Saban somehow just automatically gets them every year, is just amazing to me.

Is building a team based on incredible recruiting somehow inferior than out-scheming everyone? That seems to be the angle some play - Saban just recruits more talented people (as if that's easy), and he doesn't even have to be an actual good "coach" because his players are just better. He supposedly couldn't out-scheme people in the NFL. Fair enough, but could the NFL coaches he coached against do what he does in terms of college recruiting? I highly doubt it. Two different types of coaching jobs.

He wouldn't have any titles with recruiting classes ranked in the 20s, but I bet his teams would always play better than they looked on paper.

 

[allvol123]

Yeah I guess he had the exact same advantages at LSU right? Lol. The guy brought them into the national spotlight. He got them their first NC since 1958. But I guess that was all the Bama bank roll. Or the LSU bank roll.

Schooled? Lol. Ok so a few times in 11 years he has been beaten. Like I said, only a butthurt TN fan could make your argument. Virtually the entire college sports world disagrees with you.

Every one of his losses is to a less talented team. Good grief, he plays 2-3 games a year where the opposition is in the same solar system in terms of talent.

Remind me of those national championships at MSU.

 

[bamawriter]

Every one of his losses is to a less talented team. Good grief, he plays 2-3 games a year where the opposition is in the same solar system in terms of talent.

Remind me of those national championships at MSU.

He took over a program dealing with NCAA sanctions at MSU. Even a great recuiter will have trouble with limitations tacked on.

 

[Boston Vol]

Every one of his losses is to a less talented team. Good grief, he plays 2-3 games a year where the opposition is in the same solar system in terms of talent.

Remind me of those national championships at MSU.

Every coach in the history of sports has multiple losses to teams with lesser talent. I don’t know what you think this argument proves. Btw, he did a rather remarkable job at Michigan State given the sanctions that the ncaa dropped on them after his first season. Once he overcame those, he led the Spartans to their first ten-win season in 35 years.

 

[wmcovol]

Since 2008, when he got things rolling, he’s 21-11 in games decided by a touchdown or less. That’s a little better than “about .500.”

Well 2of those wins were against Tennessee when the game shouldn’t have been close. I have other things to do in my life that to analyze his record that closely but I recall some games where his decisions have been questionable.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Every one of his losses is to a less talented team. Good grief, he plays 2-3 games a year where the opposition is in the same solar system in terms of talent.

Remind me of those national championships at MSU.

Oh so now because he didnt win a NC at every school he has coached at you are using that? Whatever man. Continue to believe Saban isnt the GOAT. You are likely the only one.

 

[bamawriter]

Well 2of those wins were against Tennessee when the game shouldn’t have been close.

So, 2 games were close in a 12 game streak, and that somehow proves that Saban isn't a good coach?

I have other things to do in my life that to analyze his record that closely but I recall some games where his decisions have been questionable.

He's coached 166 games at Alabama. Are countless decisions across 166 game supposed to be inarguably brilliant?

 

[allvol123]

Every coach in the history of sports has multiple losses to teams with lesser talent. I don’t know what you think this argument proves. Btw, he did a rather remarkable job at Michigan State given the sanctions that the ncaa dropped on them after his first season. Once he overcame those, he led the Spartans to their first ten-win season in 35 years.

What does the argument that a guy who shows up to a knife fight with a gun wins a lot, do? Because that is the Saban is the greatest of all time argument.

Btw, Dantonio has done a great job at MSU. So Saban wasn't working miracles their.

 

[GVol1966]

He built that team. Recruiting is a part of coaching. What he has done is unprecedented. No disrespect but to call Saban anything othervthan the GOAT is insane. Only a TN fan could say such things.

Bear turned Alabama into an Elite place to play or coach football, Saban benefits from that. Saban is a great recruiter, maybe the most important thing to being a college coach.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

What does the argument that a guy who shows up to a knife fight with a gun wins a lot, do? Because that is the Saban is the greatest of all time argument.

Btw, Dantonio has done a great job at MSU. So Saban wasn't working miracles their.

Because the guy who shows up with gun is smarter and better. Its as simple as that. You can bring up MSU if you want. But your arguments have failed continuously. His success at LSU and at Bama speaks for themselves and literally destroys your narratives. But continue on.

So lets make this interesting, name the coaches that have built a program like Saban, maintained it and has had the amount of success hehas had in the modern era with 85 scholarship players.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Bear turned Alabama into an Elite place to play or coach football, Saban benefits from that. Saban is a great recruiter, maybe the most important thing to being a college coach.

The Bear has nothing to do with Sabans dominance. How many national championships did Alabama win before Saban showed up? One. In 1992.

 

[allvol123]

Because the guy who shows up with gun is smarter and better. Its as simple as that. You can bring up MSU if you want. But your arguments have failed continuously. His success at LSU and at Bama speaks for themselves and literally destroys your narratives. But continue on.

So lets make this interesting, name the coaches that have built a program like Saban, maintained it and has had the amount of success hehas had in the modern era with 85 scholarship players.

Simple question for you, tell me the games he wins that he wasn't supposed to win.

It took the genius 13.5 games last year to figure out Hurts cant pass. Wow. Wonder why? Maybe because the talent differential is so vast between his team and 99% of his competitors.

There is an old saying in football. Paraphrasing:

He can take hisn and beat yourn or he can take yourn and beat hisn.

Guess what, that phrase isn't talking about Saban.

 

[GVol1966]

The Bear has nothing to do with Sabans dominance. How many national championships did Alabama win before Saban showed up? One. In 1992.

I believe bear won 6 in his 25 year Alabama tenure, so you’re wrong.
Not saying Saban isn’t an all time great coach but he is benefiting from what Bear did!
Just like Calapari is benefiting from what Rupp did a UK! Cal may be the best recruiter in CBb
But he wouldn’t be pulling in 4-5 1 and done NBA first rounders nearly every year at Memphis if he had stayed. 1-2 yes but not 4-5

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Simple question for you, tell me the games he wins that he wasn't supposed to win.

It took the genius 13.5 games last year to figure out Hurts cant pass. Wow. Wonder why? Maybe because the talent differential is so vast between his team and 99% of his competitors.

There is an old saying in football. Paraphrasing:

He can take hisn and beat yourn or he can take yourn and beat hisn.

Guess what, that phrase isn't talking about Saban.

So what coach has done what he has?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I believe bear won 6 in his 25 year Alabama tenure, so you’re wrong.
Not saying Saban isn’t an all time great coach but he is benefiting from what Bear did!
Just like Calapari is benefiting from what Rupp did a UK! Cal may be the best recruiter in CBb
But he wouldn’t be pulling in 4-5 1 and done NBA first rounders nearly every year at Memphis if he had stayed. 1-2 yes but not 4-5

Lol. So every coach since Bryant, with the exception of Stallings in 1992, couldnt win a NC with that elite place Bama? Sorry that doesnt fly. How many #1 recruiting classes have the coaches since Bryant pulled? Did any of them pull 7 straight? Answer? No. Why not? Because they arent anywhere near Sabans level.

Saban is the best recruiter but also one of the best Xs and Os guys. You can disagree if you like but stats and virtually every rational person in the sports world would say you are wrong.

 

[bamawriter]

Paraphrasing:

He can take hisn and beat yourn or he can take yourn and beat hisn.

Guess what, that phrase isn't talking about Saban.

He took a team that was mostly Shula players and went 12-0 during the regular season and was a quarter away from winning the SECCG. The next year, he took a team that still had a ton of Shula's guys, went 14-0 and won a ring.

 

[bamawriter]

I believe bear won 6 in his 25 year Alabama tenure, so you’re wrong.
Not saying Saban isn’t an all time great coach but he is benefiting from what Bear did!

That argument could just as easily apply to the Bear: he benefitted from what Wallace Wade and Frank Thomas did. Is your argument that Saban can only be the GOAT if he succeeds at a program that has never known success?

 

[GVol1966]

Lol. So every coach since Bryant, with the exception of Stallings in 1992, couldnt win a NC with that elite place Bama? Sorry that doesnt fly. How many #1 recruiting classes have the coaches since Bryant pulled? Did any of them pull 7 straight? Answer? No. Why not? Because they arent anywhere near Sabans level.

Saban is the best recruiter but also one of the best Xs and Os guys. You can disagree if you like but stats and virtually every rational person in the sports world would say you are wrong.

Nobody said the others were good coaches, that had nothing to do with saban.
Same with UK BB, had 2-3 coaches in there that were avarage.
Anyone that coaches at Alabama absolutely does benefit from that history and tradition, just like UK and Kansas BB,
You think if saban took a job at Vanderbilt instead of Bama he would have all them championships?
If you say yes you’re either a liar or ignorant.
I am sure they would be a very good team, but
There is. A reason why coaches that can pretty much pick where they want to coach pick traditional power houses

 

[GVol1966]

That argument could just as easily apply to the Bear: he benefitted from what Wallace Wade and Frank Thomas did. Is your argument that Saban can only be the GOAT if he succeeds at a program that has never known success?

My argument is it is beneficial to coach where there is a tradition and history, if there wasn’t Miss St wouldn’t lose there HC to UF Or Spurrier would of won as many SEC east titles at USC as UF after all he didn’t forget how to coach after he went there!

 

[TUSKtimes]

My argument is it is beneficial to coach where there is a tradition and history, if there wasn’t Miss St wouldn’t lose there HC to UF Or Spurrier would of won as many SEC east titles at USC as UF after all he didn’t forget how to coach after he went there!

Makes a huge difference. Spurrier had a chance to go home after the Zook mess up but let pride get in the way. I think he regretted not having the athletes he did at Florida and it eventually got the best of him in midseason.

 

[05_never_again]

So lets make this interesting, name the coaches that have built a program like Saban, maintained it and has had the amount of success hehas had in the modern era with 85 scholarship players.

It's easy, bro. I mean, all you have to do is recruit the best players.

 

[05_never_again]

Every one of his losses is to a less talented team. Good grief, he plays 2-3 games a year where the opposition is in the same solar system in terms of talent.

Remind me of those national championships at MSU.

No s**t. If he has the most talented team, any loss is to a less talented team.

I think the only way for some of y'all to admit that he's the best of all time would be for him to have gone 160-0 with 11 titles at Alabama, or for him to purposely recruit lesser-talented players and continue to win at this same clip.

He's won 86% of his games overall at Alabama (91% of his games since 2008), for crying out loud, and in some of those losses he was playing a team that didn't surpass him in talent but was equal or very close. If you think his coaching or development is nothing special, what do you think Butch's record would have been at Alabama if he had been there this whole time?

 

[05_never_again]

Well 2of those wins were against Tennessee when the game shouldn’t have been close. I have other things to do in my life that to analyze his record that closely but I recall some games where his decisions have been questionable.

Yeah, what a complete bum he is. In this 12 game winning streak against Tennessee, all 12 games should have been blowouts, but only 10 of them actually were. That's a huge black spot on his legacy. He's only completely dismantled Tennessee 83% of the time, should be higher.

One of those close games (2016) was against a pretty good (#9) Vols team, remember?

My Lord, some of y'all are unbelievable.