Get out the beer and popcorn

#151
#151
luthervol said:
lol.....Who started the investigation? People that Trump hand picked know he is unfit for office and needs to leave (or at least be secretly controlled) This has NOTHING to do with the far left. It has everything to do with the far right selecting a grossly incompetent moron. The far left has no power, in case you forgot.
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Umm, there isn't enough "far right" voters to elect a president, it took usual Dem voters to push him over the top.
 
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#153
#153
zeppelin128 said:
I don't trust pathological liars. Trump is a pathological liar. I'll take certain media's word over his any day of the week, including sourced leaks.
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Me either. But I do trust what I have seen so far. Lower taxes, bad treaties renegotiated, expat prisoners brought home, etc etc etc.. If he acts infantile, I can live with that. My feelings aren't hurt one little bit
 
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#155
#155
This reminds me of the "Nunes memo" where House Republicans over-promised compromising material but under-delivered. How many times after it's release did Trump tweet that the Mueller investigation had now been discredited? And yet, here we remain with Paul Manafort apparently cooperating now.
 
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#156
#156
BowlBrother85 said:
This reminds me of the "Nunes memo" where House Republicans over-promised compromising material but under-delivered. How many times after it's release did Trump tweet that the Mueller investigation had now been discredited? And yet, here we remain with Paul Manafort apparently cooperating now.
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This is the actual FISA application used to spy on Trump's campaign. Comparing this to the Nunes memo isnt very smart. This is much, much more valuable.

If anything, you should be thrilled because we'll get to see if anything more than the dossier was used to spy on Trump's campaign, which has been the liberal argument from the outset.
 
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#157
#157
Orange_Crush said:
The fact that everything they may have learned about anyone started from illegal spying, which came from an illegal warrant? I'm not an attorney, but what would that do to the investigation?
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That's a stretch, now isn't it. If you want to ignore intercepts from Flynn talking to the Russian embassy, and the fact the that Manafort had been under investigation before he got onboard the Trump Train, then sure.

To think they they will drop all investigations is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I agree that some information gathered from the Page surveillance could possibly come into question, along with some subsequent information born from that.

Before the latter could happen, the facts or lack thereof, would have to line up with these Deep State conspiracy theories, which I don't think they will.
 
#158
#158
luthervol said:
lol.....Who started the investigation? People that Trump hand picked know he is unfit for office and needs to leave (or at least be secretly controlled) This has NOTHING to do with the far left. It has everything to do with the far right selecting a grossly incompetent moron. The far left has no power, in case you forgot.
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Other than you selected another grossly incompetent moron to run against him that couldn't win? Credit is deserved.
 
#159
#159
Stew Cook said:
That's a stretch, now isn't it. If you want to ignore intercepts from Flynn talking to the Russian embassy, and the fact the that Manafort had been under investigation before he got on board the Trump Train, then sure.

To think they they will drop all investigations is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I agree that some information gathered from the Page surveillance could possibly come into question, along with some subsequent information born from that.

Before the latter could happen, the facts or lack thereof, would have to line up with these Deep State conspiracy theories, which I don't think they will.
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Like I said, I don't know how this all works, or even how it should work. Just from a libertarian viewpoint in limiting government tyranny, I believe that if the gov't acts inappropriately to get a warrant, then anything they learn in the line of evidence that flows from that warrant should be inadmissible. It's a matter of basic human rights and citizen protection from unlawful government.

That is weighed against my desire for criminals to actually be punished. All that balance is there, on either side, no matter who is protected or who the criminal is. I would want Hillary protected, and I'd want Trump kicked out of office and locked away if he's a treasonous bastage.

Would you disagree? Or would you be a "ends justifies the means, especially if the one who goes down hurts my feelings" kind of guy? O even a "let's become a Soviet gestapo and forget the Constitution" kind of guy?
 
#160
#160
Matt2496 said:
This is the actual FISA application used to spy on Trump's campaign. Comparing this to the Nunes memo isnt very smart. This is much, much more valuable.

If anything, you should be thrilled because we'll get to see if anything more than the dossier was used to spy on Trump's campaign, which has been the liberal argument from the outset.
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The most valuable bit of information from this whole proceeding really will boil down to whatever Manafort provides Mueller. That was always going to be the case. If tangible, quantifiable collusion occurred between the Trump campaign and Russian agents, it happened by way of Manafort. Everything else is just another desperate attempt to deflect and distract from the essential component - Manafort.
 
#161
#161
Orange_Crush said:
Like I said, I don't know how this all works, or even how it should work. Just from a libertarian viewpoint in limiting government tyranny, I believe that if the gov't acts inappropriately to get a warrant, then anything they learn in the line of evidence that flows from that warrant should be inadmissible. It's a matter of basic human rights and citizen protection from unlawful government.

That is weighed against my desire for criminals to actually be punished. All that balance is there, on either side, no matter who is protected or who the criminal is. I would want Hillary protected, and I'd want Trump kicked out of office and locked away if he's a treasonous bastage.

Would you disagree? Or would you be a "ends justifies the means, especially if the one who goes down hurts my feelings" kind of guy? O even a "let's become a Soviet gestapo and forget the Constitution" kind of guy?
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Sure, a warrant should be considered a part of due process. Arguments could even be made that FISA warrants fall outside of that definition, entirely. Trust me, I know close to jack about the law, but I've heard a lot of arguments lately.

Just like the Hillary lied argument, which I've looked at and concluded that there is more hype than substance to, I believe Trump's actions here are to perpetuate the same sort of division. It seems like a "She's not in jail, so where's the justice?" type argument, which I reject. People will not agree on this, but it doesn't make it a Right vs Left argument.

I'll just say, with the extra scrutiny these investigations are getting, there shouldn't be much doubt, ultimately, when a report is filed by Mueller.
 
#162
#162
Stew Cook said:
Sure, a warrant should be considered a part of due process. Arguments could even be made that FISA warrants fall outside of that definition, entirely. Trust me, I know close to jack about the law, but I've heard a lot of arguments lately.

Just like the Hillary lied argument, which I've looked at and concluded that there is more hype than substance to, I believe Trump's actions here are to perpetuate the same sort of division. It seems like a "She's not in jail, so where's the justice?" type argument, which I reject. People will not agree on this, but it doesn't make it a Right vs Left argument.

I'll just say, with the extra scrutiny these investigations are getting, there shouldn't be much doubt, ultimately, when a report is filed by Mueller.
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So, do you feel that the evidence that comes from illegitimate warrants (chain of information that flowed from it and illegal search/spying/etc) should be admissible? I was careful to make known that I don't make this a right/left issue, but a gov't power and citizen right issue.

If you agree, then you should be mad as hell at the FISA court, DoJ and FBI for what they appear to have done.
 
#163
#163
Stew Cook said:
Sure, a warrant should be considered a part of due process. Arguments could even be made that FISA warrants fall outside of that definition, entirely. Trust me, I know close to jack about the law, but I've heard a lot of arguments lately.

Just like the Hillary lied argument, which I've looked at and concluded that there is more hype than substance to, I believe Trump's actions here are to perpetuate the same sort of division. It seems like a "She's not in jail, so where's the justice?" type argument, which I reject. People will not agree on this, but it doesn't make it a Right vs Left argument.

I'll just say, with the extra scrutiny these investigations are getting, there shouldn't be much doubt, ultimately, when a report is filed by Mueller.
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And anything that falls outside of due process shouldn't exit.
 
#166
#166
Orange_Crush said:
So, do you feel that the evidence that comes from illegitimate warrants (chain of information that flowed from it and illegal search/spying/etc) should be admissible? I was careful to make known that I don't make this a right/left issue, but a gov't power and citizen right issue.

If you agree, then you should be mad as hell at the FISA court, DoJ and FBI for what they appear to have done.
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Honestly, I have to defer to the details that are apparently forthcoming. I suspect that those who are predisposed to believe that things weren't above board will continue in that belief and vice-versa. Maybe the details won't be as subjective as I believe though.
 
#167
#167
Stew Cook said:
Honestly, I have to defer to the details that are apparently forthcoming. I suspect that those who are predisposed to believe that things weren't above board will continue in that belief and vice-versa. Maybe the details won't be as subjective as I believe though.
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At least you're not arguing against the declassification/release of the details like some of the folks in here. Kudos for that.

But at a hypothetical level, if the FISA warrant was shown to be gained illegitimately, what do you think the ethical thing is to do with any information gained fro it on down through the evidence chain? Any evidence that flowed from that illegal warrant?
 
#168
#168
Orange_Crush said:
At least you're not arguing against the declassification/release of the details like some of the folks in here. Kudos for that.
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Yeah, that argument is moot (at this point) , unless one is questioning the motives of which other material is being released, and what material is not, and why.

Even that will have to be a wait and see.
 
#169
#169
Stew Cook said:
Yeah, that argument is moot (at this point) , unless one is questioning the motives of which other material is being released, and what material is not, and why.

Even that will have to be a wait and see.
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Not sure if you saw the hypothetical edit.
 
#170
#170
Orange_Crush said:
At least you're not arguing against the declassification/release of the details like some of the folks in here. Kudos for that.

But at a hypothetical level, if the FISA warrant was shown to be gained illegitimately, what do you think the ethical thing is to do with any information gained fro it on down through the evidence chain? Any evidence that flowed from that illegal warrant?
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I would be surprised if that were the case, but from an ethical standpoint, I would need to weigh who deemed it illegitimate with the reasons for doing so.

I really don't think this is going to be so black and white, but again we will know more soon.

Edit: If there were an blatantly obvious and egregious act of deception, in the applications, the normal process should be applied as to what evidence would be admissible.
 
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#173
#173
lawgator1 said:
p. 1

There are many people who say that lawgator1 is a great guy.

p. 2

But those people are all paid by him to say it. The facts show that he is a child murderer who defrauds widows and kicks puppies.



Release only page 1.










See?
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You're amazing
 
#175
#175
BowlBrother85 said:
The most valuable bit of information from this whole proceeding really will boil down to whatever Manafort provides Mueller. That was always going to be the case. If tangible, quantifiable collusion occurred between the Trump campaign and Russian agents, it happened by way of Manafort. Everything else is just another desperate attempt to deflect and distract from the essential component - Manafort.
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Why was the FISA warrant and 3 extensions obtained?

You're missing the big picture here.
 
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