Dodd: Butch Jones is Underrated

#152
#152
#153
#153
BeardedVol said:
The difference between #2 and #7 is only $870k though, which is more than likely less than the raise CBJ would have gotten if he hadn't underperformed so drastically in 2016.
Click to expand...

The difference betweeen #7 and #10 is even less, just $380K.

All these two factoids mean is that SEC coaches, top to bottom, are paid well above the (already ridiculously inflated) national average of $2.15M. Doesn't really say a whole lot about any one of them, individually, except for the extreme outliers.
 
Last edited:
#154
#154
i don't disagree with anyone that's skeptical of the article, and raises questions about the level of achievements cited etc etc....

and i certainly don't disagree with anyone that's cited the multiple game day gaffs, PR nightmares etc....

but i still don't have any problem with someone at least pointing out, publically in front of God and everybody that it's NOT all bad. there's some legitimate good he's done, and right now things are not awful on Rocky Top, though some will have you believe differently. at least that's how i want to view it. i know what it's been. i'm choosing to leave that in the past, and see if, once again, any of this self generated positivity can carry thru a season....

it's now June, and all there is to talk about is either what's happened in the past, or speculate on what we think might happen next.

the debate will continue b/c that's all there is, until this season starts, and we see what happens. understanding that he's going to be here this season, and ultimately the direction of the program is pretty much on the line, i also don't think it's wrong, despite what i might think will probably happen, to want it change for the better. unless we're willing to fire him right now and pony up big bucks for whoever the next big thing is, then it's in our best interests that CBJ be that guy.

the only thing i know for sure, is that now in year 5, this is Butch Jones' program, and the remnants of Dooley, Kiffin and bad Fulmer are in the rear view, and have no relevance on how people should judge it going forward.

so, for me anyway, what happens from this point forward is all that really matters. we'll see if all the changes we've been hearing about make a difference, we'll see if the momentum in recruiting can be sustained til December and February. we'll see if he can right the records against the likes of muschamp, vandy and continue success against FL and GA....maybe finally beat a team from the West....make it thru a season w/out key injuries that take guys a way for seasons or large chunks of time....

he either will or he won't, and then decisions get to be made.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#155
#155
VFL-82-JP said:
The difference betweeen #7 and #10 is even less, just $380K.

All these two factoids mean is that SEC coaches, top to bottom, are paid well above the (already ridiculously inflated) national average. Doesn't really say a whole lot about any one of them, individually, except for the extreme outliers.
Click to expand...

Butch's agent negotiated a $500k pay raise for the 8-4 record in 2015.

If Butch had met his own expectations in 2016, then I'm sure Trace Armstrong would have gotten him $1 million+, making Butch 2nd only to Saban in salary.
 
#156
#156
BeardedVol said:
Butch's agent negotiated a $500k pay raise for the 8-4 record in 2015.

If Butch had met his own expectations in 2016, then I'm sure Trace Armstrong would have gotten him $1 million+, making Butch 2nd only to Saban in salary.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what Butch's own expectations were for 2016, since we've never heard him make any prediction on #Wins or trips to Atlanta.

But assuming his expectations were about like our own, yeah, if he had gone 10-2 regular season last fall, won the East, competed in Atlanta, maybe even had a shot at winning the SEC and getting into the playoffs or at least the Sugar Bowl...I don't think I'd have been too disappointed at him getting a hefty raise.

Having said all that, we're now engaging in some pretty deep hypotheticals. Which means this part of the conversation has no relevance to the real world, or any point you might've been trying to make about the real world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#157
#157
recruiting ,,yes , coaching ..no B.S. ..yes winning the games that matter..no fan base support ... no
 
#159
#159
Before you set your Twitter accounts to stun, consider this: The main problem for Tennessee is that it doesn't always realize fully its position -- perhaps the sixth-best program in the SEC. Try to tell me that Tennessee should be ranked ahead of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, LSU and others in the league.
Click to expand...

Ouch!
 
#160
#160
VFL-82-JP said:
I'm not sure what Butch's own expectations were for 2016, since we've never heard him make any prediction on #Wins or trips to Atlanta.

But assuming his expectations were about like our own, yeah, if he had gone 10-2 regular season last fall, won the East, competed in Atlanta, maybe even had a shot at winning the SEC and getting into the playoffs or at least the Sugar Bowl...I don't think I'd have been too disappointed at him getting a hefty raise.

Having said all that, we're now engaging in some pretty deep hypotheticals. Which means this part of the conversation has no relevance to the real world, or any point you might've been trying to make about the real world.
Click to expand...

"We always have high expectations...We expect to compete for championships" - Butch Jones 8/1/2016

The truth is every SEC coach with a higher salary than CBJ, has done more, than CBJ. Though Sumlin and Freeze haven't done much more, and more than likely neither will survive 2017 (Freeze may not even make it to the start of the season).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#161
#161
BeardedVol said:

"We always have high expectations...We expect to compete for championships" - Butch Jones 8/1/2016

The truth is every SEC coach with a higher salary than CBJ, has done more, than CBJ. Though Sumlin and Freeze haven't done much more, and more than likely neither will survive 2017 (Freeze may not even make it to the start of the season).
Click to expand...

Using the "competing for championships" metric that you raise, no. They actuallly haven't.

Kevin Sumlin, the 2nd-highest-paid coach in the SEC, has the same number of division and conference championships as Butch, at zero. Not only that, but Kevin's #Wins are going in the wrong direction (9-8-8-8 in the past four years) while Butch's are trending the right way (5-7-9-9). So Butch is actually doing better than Sumlin to date.

Hugh Freeze, same thing. Same # conference and division crowns as Butch (none), and a win column that looked good for a while, but took a nose dive to 5-7 (2-6 SEC) last season.

Both those coaches make more than Butch. Both are doing worse. Freeze is about to run his program into the ground with the NCAA's help.

I think you're pole vaulting over mouse poop with your concern for Butch's salary. He's strictly middle of the pack in an inflated league (the SEC) of a WAY-inflated industry (the entire entertainment industry, from Hollywood to Motown to the gridiron and court).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people
#163
#163
BigOrangeMojo said:
Butch has proven he isn't great but he's not in the bottom 20 percent of Power 5 coaches either. Only 12 coaches have won 9 or more games the past 2 years at Power 5 schools. Butch is one of them.
Click to expand...

The disconnect is that UT shouldn't be compared at all to the bottom 20% of Power5 coaches/staff.


There is a list of schools I think we could agree that have been very good, are currently good to very good, and have a future that projects to be very good:
USC
Oklahoma
Texas
Ohio State
Michigan
Alabama
LSU
Florida
Florida State
Clemson

Those are the schools I would think typically have serious staying power.
Then there are others which take slightly more effort, but also should be good more often than not.
Auburn
Tennessee
Virginia Tech
Notre Dame
Stanford
Wisconsin
Penn State
Georgia

Some lesser programs that have good head coaches would be
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Washington
Michigan State
TCU
Arkansas maybe?

Just thinking out loud, but we should be able to have a Top20ish coach in Power5.
 
#165
#165
Behr said:
What? You don't think that's a "fun fact"?
Click to expand...

about as fun as when my 9 year old wanted put "fun facts" on her report on the holocaust.

"sweetie, there's nothing fun about that..."

true story. kids say the darndest things....a lot like in here.:thumbsup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#166
#166
jakez4ut said:
about as fun as when my 9 year old wanted put "fun facts" on her report on the holocaust.

"sweetie, there's nothing fun about that..."

true story. kids say the darndest things....a lot like in here.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Hitler did not use WMDs? confefe.
 
#167
#167
VFL-82-JP said:
Using the "competing for championships" metric that you raise, no. They actuallly haven't.
Click to expand...

The only non-fictitious championship available to compete for in the regular season is the SEC championship, we've yet to make it to ATL where teams actually compete for the SEC championship. So, yeah, Butch didn't meet his own expectations.

VFL-82-JP said:
Kevin Sumlin, the 2nd-highest-paid coach in the SEC, has the same number of division and conference championships as Butch, at zero. Not only that, but Kevin's #Wins are going in the wrong direction (9-8-8-8 in the past four years) while Butch's are trending the right way (5-7-9-9). So Butch is actually doing better than Sumlin to date.

Hugh Freeze, same thing. Same # conference and division crowns as Butch (none), and a win column that looked good for a while, but took a nose dive to 5-7 (2-6 SEC) last season.

Both those coaches make more than Butch. Both are doing worse. Freeze is about to run his program into the ground with the NCAA's help.
Click to expand...

100% correct sir, which is why I stated that they hadn't done much more, but they do both have 6-2 SEC record seasons to go with their mediocre, .500 or worse ones, which CBJ doesn't.

VFL-82-JP said:
I think you're pole vaulting over mouse poop with your concern for Butch's salary. He's strictly middle of the pack in an inflated league (the SEC) of a WAY-inflated industry (the entire entertainment industry, from Hollywood to Motown to the gridiron and court).
Click to expand...

I didn't express any 'concern' at his current salary level, only pointed out that between CBJ's and the #2 spot there wasn't that much of a gap. In your zealotry to defend CBJ from any and all criticism, you are seeing it where none actually exists.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#168
#168
jakez4ut said:
about as fun as when my 9 year old wanted put "fun facts" on her report on the holocaust.

"sweetie, there's nothing fun about that..."

true story. kids say the darndest things....a lot like in here.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Oh no, haha. God love'um.

At least the little ones have an excuse.
 
#169
#169
TucsonVol said:
How about for starters that Butch Jones has not yet won any type of championship at Tennessee to date. He can spin his record anyway he wants, but he has NO CHAMPIONSHIPS AT TENNESSEE!!!!!
Click to expand...

His championships at Cincy have to be qualified as well. Go back and look at the records of the teams he played while at Cincy.... and the teams he beat to win those championships...

For instance in 2011, Cincy only played 4 teams that finished with a winning record. They were 2-2 in those games and added a loss to UT who finished 5-7.

In 2012, Cincy played two FCS games as was 7-3 against everyone else not counting the bowl after Jones left. Of those 7 wins, only VT at 7 wins and Syracuse at 8 had winning records. He was again 2-2 vs teams with a winning record. That's not encouraging in a conference where 9-12 teams in any given year will finish with a winning record and the top end of the conference is expected to compete for a NC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#170
#170
VFL-82-JP said:
Kevin Sumlin, the 2nd-highest-paid coach in the SEC, has the same number of division and conference championships as Butch, at zero. Not only that, but Kevin's #Wins are going in the wrong direction (9-8-8-8 in the past four years) while Butch's are trending the right way (5-7-9-9). So Butch is actually doing better than Sumlin to date.

Hugh Freeze, same thing. Same # conference and division crowns as Butch (none), and a win column that looked good for a while, but took a nose dive to 5-7 (2-6 SEC) last season.
Click to expand...

If either of them were playing in the East rather than the West... what are the chances they would have won the division? You can't really bring West coaches into the conversation without acknowledging the imbalance in the SEC right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#172
#172
DaddyChad said:
And yet we just had how many players drafted in this years draft?
Click to expand...

6, but NFL draft numbers a far from a prime indicator of an HC's ability to develop players. Any of the 6 we drafted would have been drafted if they had played for any other school as well, and Dobbs probably would have even gone higher if he had been in a program that employed a QB coach during his time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement



Back
Top