Another questionable quote from Butch today

You discounted our bowl wins by saying 2/3 get a bowl invite.

So if a bowl game is meaningless because it's not part of the CFP, then it stands to reason once a team is not in the hunt any games left are meaningless as well.

What did you mean by meaningless?

Non-CFP bowl wins have no effect on conference or CFP standings, and as far as I've never seen any measurables stating otherwise, no effect on recruiting.

The fact that 2/3 of college football teams participate in them, and with the threshold being a 6-6 (5-7 with APR) record, they are glorified scrimmages for all practical purposes.

Going to and winning a bowl is obviously better than not, but since the barrier of entry is so low doing so is in no way an indicator as to the health or positive direction of the program.
 
There might be 40 bowl games, but TN has been going to the ones that are in the upper half. What difference does it make how many bowls exist when TN isn't going to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl or the Foster Farms Bowl? Just something else to ***** about by the Negas?
 
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Non-CFP bowl wins have no effect on conference or CFP standings, and as far as I've never seen any measurables stating otherwise, no effect on recruiting.

The fact that 2/3 of college football teams participate in them, and with the threshold being a 6-6 (5-7 with APR) record, they are glorified scrimmages for all practical purposes.

Going to and winning a bowl is obviously better than not, but since the barrier of entry is so low doing so is in no way an indicator as to the health or positive direction of the program.

The win/loss column is impacted by the bowl games. 9-4 > 8-5.

It's an unnecessary exaggeration to tag them as meaningless due to the number of bowls and that they don't impact who wins the NC.
 
The win/loss column is impacted by the bowl games. 9-4 > 8-5.

It's an unnecessary exaggeration to tag them as meaningless due to the number of bowls and that they don't impact who wins the NC.

A win that has no effect on CFP or conference standings is effectively meaningless.
 
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There might be 40 bowl games, but TN has been going to the ones that are in the upper half. What difference does it make how many bowls exist when TN isn't going to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl or the Foster Farms Bowl? Just something else to ***** about by the Negas?

Why are you always so angry?
 
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A win that has no effect on CFP or conference standings is effectively meaningless.

eh, this argument is stale too. no, no one should hang banners for winning the music city bowl.

but i can tell you this...lose it, and it's grounds for execution. win it, and who cares.

enjoy it for what it is. there's really no need to downplay it, or prop it up. i'd rather go to a bowl than not. and i'd rather go to the CFP than the music city.

is this really debatable?
 
eh, this argument is stale too. no, no one should hang banners for winning the music city bowl.

but i can tell you this...lose it, and it's grounds for execution. win it, and who cares.

enjoy it for what it is. there's really no need to downplay it, or prop it up. i'd rather go to a bowl than not. and i'd rather go to the CFP than the music city.

is this really debatable?

Can you think of one coach in the last 20 years, who was fired because of bowl game losses?
 
Can you think of one coach in the last 20 years, who was fired because of bowl game losses?

it's in regards to the fan reaction here; there's zero benefit or worth given to winning, much less attending these bowls, but lose...and people lose their minds.
 
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As Jake posted it's the loss of a "meaningless game" that changes the whole idea of it being meaningless.

It might hurt your orange heart to lose it, but ultimately a bowl win/loss has no effect on the outcome of the season; it's meaningless in terms of conference or CFP standings.

Which is exactly why more players with high draft prospects are beginning to skip them.
 
It might hurt your orange heart to lose it, but ultimately a bowl win/loss has no effect on the outcome of the season; it's meaningless in terms of conference or CFP standings.

Which is exactly why more players with high draft prospects are beginning to skip them.

on that, we agree.

you still won't convince me that had we lost any of the three bowls we won, that it wouldn't be used against him.

hell, that we won them is used against him....:eek:lol:
 
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Yea, not everyone makes excuses and I don't believe anyone accepts being mediocre.

Then you would be 100% incorrect. There are people on this site that have repeatedly excused what Jones has done by pointing to things like the "historic average" of UT football. Others have openly said that they're satisfied with the level Jones has achieved. Still others say they would like to see championships but basically Jones should get an indefinite period of time as long as he doesn't get worse... well maybe he can get a little worse or have "off years".

It is expressed in a bunch of different ways and to different degrees... but the bottom line is a STANDARD less than winning championships. Not a "goal"... a STANDARD. A goal you wish for... a standard you expect.
 
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A little mathematics logic test, for NegaVols.

Person A says that, "9 is greater than 5."

Person B can respond in these ways; which is illogical?

-- "Yes, 9 is significantly greater than 5, in fact, it's almost double."
-- "Agreed, 9 is greater than 5, but 15 is bigger still."
-- "ZOMFG, NO! YOU CAN"T ACCEPT 9, WE DON"T ACCEPT 9, THAT'S MEDIOCRE!"

I'll wait for you to think through the possible responses.

as I stated in a different thread where I was accused of being Captain Obvious (and yet apparently it isn't)....

We can point to numbers all day long. People want to see good football. Two 9-3 teams can look entitrely different.

As a Florida fan, we won 10 games in 2015 and would have won 10 in 2016 if not for a cancellation of a cupcake game. And that sounds great. 10 win seasons. Awesome. But, when you see that it's a team so pitiful that crossing midfield at times in the last two seasons has been an epic struggle, a more sophisticated examination tells you that it's not close to looking the way it should. And that it is indeed mediocre football....as proven when stepping on the field with teams that are quality teams.

We can pretend all we want, but there was one giant killer on Tennessee's schedule, a few bad teams, and a handful of mediocre ones. So, a "contending" team on the rise and on the way to prominence shouldn't be a breath away from losing 6 with such a schedule.

I still submit to you and to everyone else that as a fan of a team in the East, none of us have any respect for one another. I'm not worried about Florida losing to Tennessee because of how good Tennessee is. I am worried about how good Florida isn't. I'm sure you're not worried about how good Florida is, but how good Tennessee may not be.

well, when you are still worried about how good you aren't....you're not contending yet
 
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I've yet to hear any Vol fan, coach or player say "it is all "OK"". CBJ did say things were "fine" after the SC loss. Other than that Al I've heard is we should have won this and could have done that, but not anything like all is well.
Really? Then you really need to pay MUCH closer attention to what is said in every debate about Jones' future and what we SHOULD expect from him.

It's mostly the negabombers that say let's worry about Vandy rather than about getting back to Atlanta in Dec and Jan. So if you want to bash a group for lowering the bar bash te negabombers but not the Sunshiners.

Uh... yeah. Maybe that's because Jones has lost twice to Vandy teams with less talent and hasn't sniffed ATL even though he's had two wide open opportunities.
 
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on that, we agree.

you still won't convince me that had we lost any of the three bowls we won, that it wouldn't be used against him.

hell, that we won them is used against him....:eek:lol:

Many expected to play in a big bowl against one of the best. Those 3 bowl wins we expected to win....and CBJ calls them bowl championships....that's the main reason he is mocked
 
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Then you would be 100% incorrect. There are people on this site that have repeatedly excused what Jones has done by pointing to things like the "historic average" of UT football. Others have openly said that they're satisfied with the level Jones has achieved. Still others say they would like to see championships but basically Jones should get an indefinite period of time as long as he doesn't get worse... well maybe he can get a little worse or have "off years".

It is expressed in a bunch of different ways and to different degrees... but the bottom line is a STANDARD less than winning championships. Not a "goal"... a STANDARD. A goal you wish for... a standard you expect.

agreed, i think terms like standard, goals and expectations get thrown around a lot here, and no one really uses them in the correct manner.

standards don't change. goals and expectations can, given a particular set of circumstances or situations. but that doesn't affect the standard of your program company or organization.

it's why i choose certain hotels over others when i travel. or restaurants. or golf courses. when standards are high, i can raise my expectations, and more times than not, i know what i'm going to get as a result of those choices.
 
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So when facts about history and bowl wins are mentioned that's lowering the bar?
ABSOUTELY when in the context of deflecting criticisms for underperformance.

Just a heads up the bar last year was getting to Tampa, to see how great 120 could be and to be 1-0 each week.

Don't let the negabombers influence the bar that has been set by CBJ and the team.
If that is truly Jones' "bar"... why should we expect or accept anything less? He obviously thought it was reasonable though many here didn't seem to.

Last year was reminiscent in some ways to 2005. Obviously the records was better but Jones like Fulmer went into the season thinking he'd play for the SEC. He thought he had the team and knew his team. Both stumbled from the outset... ASU for Jones, UAB for Fulmer.

Fulmer never really recovered though his tenure was extended by bringing Cut back. Jones has changed staff now too... we'll see.
 
Many expected to play in a big bowl against one of the best. Those 3 bowl wins we expected to win....and CBJ calls them bowl championships....that's the main reason he is mocked

i get that, and generally i agree on the butchism part of this equation. he doesn't help himself in that regard.

but the fan reaction to going to the bowl, and winning it, really doesn't have anything to do with the butchism aspect.

as i said earlier, going to and winning music city type bowl games is better than not going to one, but it can't be the standard level of achievement either going forward.
 
as I stated in a different thread where I was accused of being Captain Obvious (and yet apparently it isn't)....

We can point to numbers all day long. People want to see good football. Two 9-3 teams can look entitrely different.

As a Florida fan, we won 10 games in 2015 and would have won 10 in 2016 if not for a cancellation of a cupcake game. And that sounds great. 10 win seasons. Awesome. But, when you see that it's a team so pitiful that crossing midfield at times in the last two seasons has been an epic struggle, a more sophisticated examination tells you that it's not close to looking the way it should. And that it is indeed mediocre football....as proven when stepping on the field with teams that are quality teams.

We can pretend all we want, but there was one giant killer on Tennessee's schedule, a few bad teams, and a handful of mediocre ones. So, a "contending" team on the rise and on the way to prominence shouldn't be a breath away from losing 6 with such a schedule.

I still submit to you and to everyone else that as a fan of a team in the East, none of us have any respect for one another. I'm not worried about Florida losing to Tennessee because of how good Tennessee is. I am worried about how good Florida isn't. I'm sure you're not worried about how good Florida is, but how good Tennessee may not be.

well, when you are still worried about how good you aren't....you're not contending yet

That wasn't math.






Heh, okay, a less snarky response.

There's an extent to which football is all relative. It can be very difficult to judge a team in isolation (how good were they really in spring camp? We won't know until they get on the field in real competition!) ... and yet judging the team on the field depends entirely on the RELATIVE quality of the opponent. Even a Little Sisters of the Poor can look awesome if they're playing East Middle School.

I don't want to make this case too absolutely. There is an extent to which you can see if a team is well-coached...do they have focus, discipline, avoid dumb mistakes, run crisp routes, hold blocks until the whistle sounds, etc.

But a whole lot of watching two teams contest a match is dependent on the relative strengths of the two teams.

I suspect that the East was probably better than our collective dismal opinion of them looking back. But in the one way that mattered (winning games), they failed -- against the West, and against OOC Power 5 opponents. For that matter, the West failed OOC, too, in 2016, included vaunted Bama at the very end.

So the SEC had a down year, and is only the 3rd or 4th best of the Power 5 conferences. The East was even further down, and appeared weak as a kitten.

Those are facts that can't be denied. On-field results prove them.

But like an accordian, there's plenty of wiggle on the sizes of the gaps between teams and divisions/converences, even if you know what order they're in.

So I understand what you're saying. I'm just not sold on the "we so totally suck" angle you've been pursuing these past few weeks.

I think the truth is somewhere in the muddy middle of all that.


p.s. And leaving ALL that aside, 9 is still bigger than 5, even if we haven't yet found 15.
 
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on that, we agree.

you still won't convince me that had we lost any of the three bowls we won, that it wouldn't be used against him.

hell, that we won them is used against him....:eek:lol:

I'm sure pundits, and some of us would if it was a bad loss, but it would still have no real effect on anything other than an uptick in the W or the L column.

Florida was blasted by Michigan in the Citrus Bowl, still pulled in #12 recruiting class, went on to win the division the following year.

Could you think of any modern day coach fired for losing bowl games? I can't.:ermm:
 
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It might hurt your orange heart to lose it, but ultimately a bowl win/loss has no effect on the outcome of the season; it's meaningless in terms of conference or CFP standings.

Which is exactly why more players with high draft prospects are beginning to skip them.

Sure they don't matter to players that are leaving the program, but for the ones staying and have a passion for winning they do mean something. Even if it's only for the pride of winning.

There are a lot of Orange hearts that it does matter to.
 
I'm sure pundits, and some of us would if it was a bad loss, but it would still have no real affect on anything other than an uptick in the W or the L column.

Florida was blasted by Michigan in the Citrus Bowl, still pulled in #12 recruiting class, went on to win the division the following year.

Could you think of any modern day coach fired for losing bowl games? I can't.:ermm:

again, given that the vein of this conversation is related to fan reaction, i'm sticking to what the reaction would be here faced with a loss in a perceived 'meaningless' game.

i've no contention to the notion that it has no bearing on the season as a whole. as stated earlier, on that we agree.
 
That wasn't math.






Heh, okay, a less snarky response.

There's an extent to which football is all relative. It can be very difficult to judge a team in isolation (how good were they really in spring camp? We won't know until they get on the field with a real team!) ... and yet judging the team on the field depends entirely on the RELATIVE quality of the opponent. Even a Little Sisters of the Poor can look awesome if they're playing East Middle School.

I don't want to make this case too absolutely. There is an extent to which you can see if a team is well-coached...do they have focus, discipline, avoid dumb mistakes, run crisp routes, hold blocks until the whistle sounds, etc.

But a whole lot of watching two teams contest a match is dependent on the relative strengths of the two teams.

I suspect that the East was probably better than our collective dismal opinion of them looking back. But in the one way that mattered (winning games), they failed -- against the West, and against OOC Power 5 opponents. For that matter, the West failed OOC, too, included vaunted Bama at the very end.

So the SEC had a down year, and is only the 3rd or 4th best of the Power 5 conferences. The East was even further down, and appeared weak as a kitten.

Those are facts that can't be denied. On-field results prove them.

But like an accordian, there's plenty of wiggle on the sizes of the gaps between teams and divisions/converences, even if you know what order they're in.

So I understand what you're saying. I'm just not sold on the "we so totally suck" angle you've been pursuing these past few weeks.

I think the truth is somewhere in the muddy middle of all that.

I didn't say "you totally suck".

I would classify Tennessee, Florida and several others as mediocre.

Contenders are teams that have separated themselves from the bad and a lot of the mediocre. We haven't done that. We're still going to overtime with Appy State and Florida Atlantic. We're losing or flirting with losing to Vandy and Kentucky. Etc, etc, etc.
 
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