Butch 4th ranked overpaid coach in NCAA?

#151
#151
Boca Vol said:
Fine, but you and many others are quick to point out that Dooley set UT football to the stone ages.

What if Dooley had kept Wilcox as DC in '12 with that O? We're all talking about the Dooley years in a different light, aren't we?

Shoop was very close to be Jones' Dave Clawson. Yeah, injuries, whatever. Sh*T happens. As I've mentioned prior, the margin is razor thin.
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stop...jeez. i don't think you understand that i've agreed with you. like 4 times already. now we're going to play the what if game with Dooley's staff?
 
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#152
#152
jakez4ut said:
and dools never won a bowl game. or won 9 games.

why are you making me in to a CBJ apologist?

for someone that wants to stop the comparison, you're having a tough time letting it go.

being better than Dooley is not the goal.
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Because you all keep harping on what Butch inherited...and you're basically saying that, "It's year 5. What Butch inherits is on him."...When previous HC's never got that grace period.
 
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#153
#153
Boca Vol said:
Because you all keep harping on what Butch inherited...and you're basically saying that, "It's year 5. What Butch inherits is on him."...When previous HC's never got that grace period.
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are you so anxious to type that you just hit quote and type w/out reading?

find a single post from me saying anything about what happens this year being relative to what he inherited?

all i can tell you is this...he is going to be here next year, and probably 2018.

and whatever happens going forward, is ALL butch jones. good or bad. so he'll either be the same ol butch we've seen the last two years, or he'll get better and shock us all.

either way, it really doesn't matter what happened in 2012 prior. none of those programs have any bearing on the present day.

not sure what's so difficult to understand about that, and i don't even like the guy.
 
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#154
#154
Boca Vol said:
Because you all keep harping on what Butch inherited...and you're basically saying that, "It's year 5. What Butch inherits is on him."...When previous HC's never got that grace period.
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Kiff left, his choice.

you wanted Dooley to stick around?

Butch is the benefactor of a not so sound administrative situation, that allows him extra time that most don't get.

i've said it several times this off season, but he's getting a chance to rebuild a rebuild. something that most, as you pointed out, don't get a chance to do.

so if you think there's some movement, at least from me, that says that's because of this outstanding job he's done, so he should get another 4 years or whateveretc...that's not the program.

for me it's all situational based. i think under a different program, with a better leadership structure, and a clearly defined purpose, CBJ probably could have been handed his walking papers immediatley after the Vandy game this past season, justifiably so.

that didn't happen. so we get to find out what's next in BSIA part deux.
 
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#155
#155
jakez4ut said:
are you so anxious to type that you just hit quote and type w/out reading?

find a single post from me saying anything about what happens this year being relative to what he inherited?

all i can tell you is this...he is going to be here next year, and probably 2018.

and whatever happens going forward, is ALL butch jones. good or bad. so he'll either be the same ol butch we've seen the last two years, or he'll get better and shock us all.

either way, it really doesn't matter what happened in 2012 prior. none of those programs have any bearing on the present day.

not sure what's so difficult to understand about that, and i don't even like the guy.
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No sh%t! So why bring up what Butch inherited? It doesn't matter today.

BUT, what if Butch had left after the Vandy game?....

What would the story look like? He (the new coach) inherited a Sh#t show from Butch. Players leaving in mid-season, new QB, etc.

The bottom line is you can make it look any way you want to fit your narrative. If Butch left today, some on here would be willing to give the coach a decade to correct this "mess".
 
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#156
#156
Boca Vol said:
No sh%t! So why bring up what Butch inherited? It doesn't matter today.

BUT, what if Butch had left after the Vandy game?....

What would the story look like? He inherited a Sh#t show from Butch. Players leaving in mid-season, etc.

The bottom line is you can make it look any way you want to fit your narrative. If Butch left today, some on here would be willing to give the coach a decade to correct this "mess".
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i didn't. i was responding to a post that i thought was about other programs having worse situations than UT when Butch took over.

in which i said, and i've said it over and over and over, since then, that at this point, being better than dooley isn't the goal. but if you wanna talk about who had the worst steaming pile to clean up...then i'd throw butch in that ring.

these are two different conversations at this point.......BECAUSE IT'S YEAR 5.


:peace2:
 
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#157
#157
Boca Vol said:
Because you all keep harping on what Butch inherited...and you're basically saying that, "It's year 5. What Butch inherits is on him."...When previous HC's never got that grace period.
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any coach following Dooley. We had no one drafted for two years because of him. That's unheard of in the SEC. meaning, everyone had better talent than we did for at least two years. I view Butch from two years ago. So to me, he's went 9-4 in back to back seasons.
 
#158
#158
smokey0625 said:
any coach following Dooley. We had no one drafted for two years because of him. That's unheard of in the SEC. meaning, everyone had better talent than we did for at least two years. I view Butch from two years ago. So to me, he's went 9-4 in back to back seasons.
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Wow , when you see that written down it makes you pause and really understand how bad we where. I'm really wondering how we kept from losing more and breaking the record for losses in one season.
 
#159
#159
smokey0625 said:
any coach following Dooley. We had no one drafted for two years because of him. That's unheard of in the SEC. meaning, everyone had better talent than we did for at least two years. I view Butch from two years ago. So to me, he's went 9-4 in back to back seasons.
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9-4 (8-4) (4-4) is middle of the SEC, and with UT's current schedule in the era of modern college football, it's not very impressive. Even more so in the context of 2016 being CBJ's 4th season as HC.
 
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#160
#160
BeardedVol said:
9-4 (8-4) (4-4) is middle of the SEC, and with UT's current schedule in the era of modern college football, it's not very impressive. Even more so in the context of 2016 being CBJ's 4th season as HC.
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You can't tell me what I believe. I'm saying that 9-4 is good. But thanks for letting me know what I already know with your facts. You didn't address the undrafted years so it would fit your agenda, so it's hard for me to take you as credible. I'm saying that compared to where we were, he's done an incredible job. You're saying **** the Dooley years and judge him like bama should judge the guy that follows saban.
 
#162
#162
Iam4utalways said:
He has surpassed being compared to Dooley.

To bring up Dooley is to remember the worst times for the Vols.

Now that CBJ is at a reasonable starting point, let's see what he can do this year. Everybody knows what he has done, now let's see what he can do with 121.
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He has proven he's better than Dooley. Until he wins something of substance Dooley will be mentioned in the manor you used. But as I said, that also tells you where you are.
 
#163
#163
smokey0625 said:
You can't tell me what I believe. I'm saying that 9-4 is good. But thanks for letting me know what I already know with your facts. You didn't address the undrafted years so it would fit your agenda, so it's hard for me to take you as credible. I'm saying that compared to where we were, he's done an incredible job. You're saying **** the Dooley years and judge him like bama should judge the guy that follows saban.
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Please explain to me how Derek Dooley, was still able to affect the program during the 2016 season?
 
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#165
#165
Take historical revisionism out of it and make it simple: The Vols have been at 8-4 the past two years and the majority seem to think that's where the team will end up this year. So three different UT teams with different players, different position coaches and varying levels of talent, depth and experience will have the same outcome-- an 8-4 record. Some fans find that acceptable; others do not. And therein lies the controversy.
 
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#166
#166
LA Vol said:
Take historical revisionism out of it and make it simple: The Vols have been at 8-4 the past two years and the majority seem to think that's where the team will end up this year. So three different UT teams with different players, different position coaches and varying levels of talent, depth and experience will have the same outcome-- an 8-4 record. Some fans find that acceptable; others do not. And therein lies the controversy.
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Pretty Good take.
 
#170
#170
It would be a "pretty good take" if the 2017 season had already been played, with 8-4 as the outcome.

Short of that, it's just a premature conclusion.

Why don't we let the 2017 season play out before we pass judgment on it? If we end up 8-4 (or worse) again, I'll be right there with you, agreeing Butch is not the answer. From my perspective, this is his last opportunity.

But it is still an opportunity. Go Vols!
 
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#171
#171
Records aren't "tell all". The same people who once said Jones' poor records in the first two years represented progress in spite of a lack of wins... now tell us that the 9 wins represent "progress" even though there was so much more left on the table.

Jones blew two wide open opportunities to win the East. The division has been at its weakest during his tenure. It won't stay that weak. This is the real bottom line. Is there anything at all in Jones' performance over the past 4 years that suggests he'll be competitive when UGA and UF become themselves again?
 
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#172
#172
VFL-82-JP said:
It would be a "pretty good take" if the 2017 season had already been played, with 8-4 as the outcome.

Short of that, it's just a premature conclusion.

Why don't we let the 2017 season play out before we pass judgment on it? If we end up 8-4 (or worse) again, I'll be right there with you, agreeing Butch is not the answer. From my perspective, this is his last opportunity.

But it is still an opportunity. Go Vols!
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i don't have an issue with that, and agree. though i don't know this is his last opportunity. but it's just conjecture based on what we know....and what we think will happen, i don't think anyone's said otherwise.

of course the season still has to be played, and we'll all get the answer....one way or the other.
 
#173
#173
sjt18 said:
Records aren't "tell all". The same people who once said Jones' poor records in the first two years represented progress in spite of a lack of wins... now tell us that the 9 wins represent "progress" even though there was so much more left on the table.

Jones blew two wide open opportunities to win the East. The division has been at its weakest during his tenure. It won't stay that weak. This is the real bottom line. Is there anything at all in Jones' performance over the past 4 years that suggests he'll be competitive when UGA and UF become themselves again?
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the farther away we get from 2009-2012, the less room there is for correlation between then and now. agreed.

this is his program now. and can be judged solely on that.:thumbsup:
 
#174
#174
VFL-82-JP said:
It would be a "pretty good take" if the 2017 season had already been played, with 8-4 as the outcome.

Short of that, it's just a premature conclusion.

Why don't we let the 2017 season play out before we pass judgment on it? If we end up 8-4 (or worse) again, I'll be right there with you, agreeing Butch is not the answer. From my perspective, this is his last opportunity.

But it is still an opportunity. Go Vols!
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Who's passing judgment? And who's drawing conclusions?

You're inferring a conclusion of "Butch is not the answer" from a presentation of simple facts and one supposition based on prevailing opinion. The original argument was open-ended, allowing people to draw their own conclusion. I, too, am waiting to see what this year brings and how the changes made will alter the outcome of the season and the trajectory of the program.
 
#175
#175
LA Vol said:
Take historical revisionism out of it and make it simple: The Vols have been at 8-4 the past two years and the majority seem to think that's where the team will end up this year. So three different UT teams with different players, different position coaches and varying levels of talent, depth and experience will have the same outcome-- an 8-4 record. Some fans find that acceptable; others do not. And therein lies the controversy.
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That's who. In the bolded statement. Premature conclusion about a season not yet played. All the way to people "finding it acceptable" or not.

How do you find acceptable (or not) something that hasn't even happened yet? Premature conclusion.
 
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