Butch 4th ranked overpaid coach in NCAA?

#126
#126
I'm surprised Sumlin didn't head the list. He has had stellar recruiting classes, great starts and November swoons on the way to 8-5 finishes (granted SECwest ain't easy).
 
#127
#127
VFL-82-JP said:
...and there are seven head coaches who make more than him who had the same number of wins, or fewer, in 2016.

Once again, we're so focused on our own coach's warts, we're blind to the (often even bigger) warts on a lot of the other coaches out there.

Objectively speaking, he's probably not overpaid at all. He simply hasn't given us what we want yet, a conference championship.
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The division has been and will be attainable for a few more years. I don't expect him to beat Saban for the conference.

May sound negative but until he navigates a poor division it's hard to hold him to covering the elite for the big prize.
 
#130
#130
Iam4utalways said:
If Butch is here 10 years from now, that means we've represented the east in Atlanta in the SECCG(I hope).

Until we get over the hump(win SEC) or someone does worse(not likely), Dooley will always be mentioned as the reason we spiraled the way we did.

Has there been a coach at a high profile program to stink it up as bad as Dooley?
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As long as Dooley is mentioned you are not comparing him to coaches that have won something here. That will tell you where you are. Just better than the worst guy you ever hired.
 
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#133
#133
BeardedVol said:
It's not a commentary on his actuall performance as HC at UT, but rather whether or not the $16 million dollars that he has been paid, has returned commensurate dividends on the field.
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The $16 million dollars has returned big dividends for the athletic department. I can almost guarantee that. Not just about specific wins and losses.
 
#136
#136
Boca Vol said:
A lot did...according to each of their fanbases, How much worse was UT when Butch took over vs the other schools?
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Mac took over a team with championship level defenses...chock full of NFL talent.

Smart...took over a program that went 10-3 each of the two years previous to him arriving.

Muschamp took a dumpster fire at USCe

Mason took over a vandy program that arguably had it's best couple of years in...decades. all things being relative, of course, it's still vandy.

Oregeron is taking over an LSU program that won 10, 8 and 9 games each of hte last 3 years prior to his arrival.

freeze, sumlin and Mullen took over programs that were down. don't know that i'd call any of them dumpster fires, relative to what the are perennially. all three have taken those programs, even if only once, to heights they haven't seen in quite some time, if ever.

Jones took over a program that won 7, 6, 5, 5 games each year previous to his arrival.

i'm not gonna argue with anyone that says that's not the standard we're trying to be better than, cause i agree. it's not the goal to simply be better than 23 wins over a 4 year stretch.

but, if the conversation is "who took over the bigger steaming pile", then i'd throw Butch's name in that contest, and feel pretty good about my chances.:eek:lol:
 
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#137
#137
jakez4ut said:
Mac took over a team with championship level defenses...chock full of NFL talent.

Smart...took over a program that went 10-3 each of the two years previous to him arriving.

Muschamp took a dumpster fire at USCe

Mason took over a vandy program that arguably had it's best couple of years in...decades. all things being relative, of course, it's still vandy.

Oregeron is taking over an LSU program that won 10, 8 and 9 games each of hte last 3 years prior to his arrival.

freeze, sumlin and Mullen took over programs that were down. don't know that i'd call any of them dumpster fires, relative to what the are perennially. all three have taken those programs, even if only once, to heights they haven't seen in quite some time, if ever.

Jones took over a program that won 7, 6, 5, 5 games each year previous to his arrival.

i'm not gonna argue with anyone that says that's not the standard we're trying to be better than, cause i agree. it's not the goal to simply be better than 23 wins over a 4 year stretch.

but, if the conversation is "who took over the bigger steaming pile", then i'd throw Butch's name in that contest, and feel pretty good about my chances.:eek:lol:
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And everyone of those schools would tell you their program was trending downward. Hell, UT fans were even making fun of UF for going 4-8!

I understand that it helps the excuse of what Butch inherited but we're going on year 5...and most of you were touting the culture change going on at UT back in '13...so again, how long does it take?
 
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#138
#138
BeecherVol said:
As long as Dooley is mentioned you are not comparing him to coaches that have won something here. That will tell you where you are. Just better than the worst guy you ever hired.
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He has surpassed being compared to Dooley.

To bring up Dooley is to remember the worst times for the Vols.

Now that CBJ is at a reasonable starting point, let's see what he can do this year. Everybody knows what he has done, now let's see what he can do with 121.
 
#139
#139
Boca Vol said:
And everyone of those schools would tell you their program was trending downward. Hell, UT fans were even making fun of UF for going 4-8!

I understand that it helps the excuse of what Butch inherited but we're going on year 5...and most of you were touting the culture change going on at UT back in '13...so again, how long does it take?
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i'm not gonna argue with anyone that says that's not the standard we're trying to be better than, cause i agree. it's not the goal to simply be better than 23 wins over a 4 year stretch.

but, if the conversation is "who took over the bigger steaming pile", then i'd throw Butch's name in that contest, and feel pretty good about my chances.
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i think i addressed that in my post. i'm not disagreeing with you. but which is it...who took over the worse situation or should it matter in year 5?
 
#140
#140
Iam4utalways said:
He has surpassed being compared to Dooley.

To bring up Dooley is to remember the worst times for the Vols.

Now that CBJ is at a reasonable starting point, let's see what he can do this year. Everybody knows what he has done, now let's see what he can do with 121.
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So Butch gets a 4 year pass? Why is that? No other coach in modern history got a 4 year pass! And no, Dooley didn't wreck it to that depth.

Hell, most of you are still puffing your chest and bragging that UT is still one of 2 schools that's never lost 8 games in a season. Even Dools didn't sink UT to that depth. The fact is UT could go 5-7 for the next 100 years and that meaningless stat would still hold true.

But back to the topic, why is Butch just now at a "reasonable" starting point?
 
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#141
#141
Boca Vol said:
So Butch gets a 4 year pass? Why is that? No other coach in modern history got a 4 year pass! And no, Dooley didn't wreck it to that depth.

Hell, most of you are still puffing your chest and bragging that UT is still one of 2 schools that's never lost 8 games in a season. Even Dools didn't sink UT to that depth. The fact is UT could go 5-7 for the next 100 years and that meaningless stat would still hold true.

But back to the topic, why is Butch just now at a "reasonable" starting point?
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because it's now competitive again. we sucked when he got here, and no one reasonably expected him to compete for anything those 1st two years except possibly a bowl berth.

then you saw the recruiting. and expectations got raised, rigthfully so.

so he took a dumpster fire to respectability.

can he take respectability to another rung on the ladder?

there are those, i among them, that think he could have/should have done AT LEAST one of the last two years, if not both. he hasn't. but fortune be on his side, he's got another chance (or two) to see if he can do it.
 
#143
#143
point being, he won't be graded in 2017 (or possibly 2018) based on what happened 2009 to 2012.

whatever happens now, good or bad, is all Butch Jones, and he'll be graded against himself, and himself only.
 
#144
#144
Boca Vol said:
The "worse" situation is subjective and should it matter is HELL NO!
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fair, but i'd still take Butch in that fight.

and i agree. in year 5, it's his program now. the remnants of the "old guard" are now gone. what happened then has no bearing on what he can/could/should/will accomplish, or not, going forward.

but these are different conversations....for a good reason now. it's year 5.
 
#145
#145
jakez4ut said:
because it's now competitive again. we sucked when he got here, and no one reasonably expected him to compete for anything those 1st two years except possibly a bowl berth.

then you saw the recruiting. and expectations got raised, rigthfully so.

so he took a dumpster fire to respectability.

can he take respectability to another rung on the ladder?

there are those, i among them, that think he could have/should have done AT LEAST one of the last two years, if not both. he hasn't. but fortune be on his side, he's got another chance (or two) to see if he can do it.
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To play devil's advocate, do Dools and Kiff get the same leniency? It's not as if they took over rosters full of NFL talent. Yes, there was some, but not much.

How much time does it take to instill a culture? If it takes more than a recruiting cycle something's wrong.
 
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#146
#146
jakez4ut said:
point being, he won't be graded in 2017 (or possibly 2018) based on what happened 2009 to 2012.

whatever happens now, good or bad, is all Butch Jones, and he'll be graded against himself, and himself only.
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But Dools never got that much....

I'm not saying Dooley was a better coach, but you people keeping moving the bar for Jones.
 
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#147
#147
Boca Vol said:
To play devil's advocate, do Dools and Kiff get the same leniency? It's not as if they took over rosters full of NFL talent. Yes, there was some, but not much.

How much time does it take to instill a culture? If it takes more than a recruiting cycle something's wrong.
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not sure how it's relevant. Kiffin bolted on his own accord, so no, he gets no mercy.

Dooley, hell i felt sorry for the guy. he was like 8th on the list and just happened to be the guy that said "sure, i'll do it".

i remember telling my dad when he got hired..."this isn't going to end well, but really, it's not his fault".
 
#149
#149
Boca Vol said:
But Dools never got that much....

I'm not saying Dooley was a better coach, but you people keeping moving the bar for Jones.
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and dools never won a bowl game. or won 9 games.

why are you making me in to a CBJ apologist?

for someone that wants to stop the comparison, you're having a tough time letting it go.

being better than Dooley is not the goal.
 
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#150
#150
jakez4ut said:
not sure how it's relevant. Kiffin bolted on his own accord, so no, he gets no mercy.

Dooley, hell i felt sorry for the guy. he was like 8th on the list and just happened to be the guy that said "sure, i'll do it".

i remember telling my dad when he got hired..."this isn't going to end well, but really, it's not his fault".
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Fine, but you and many others are quick to point out that Dooley set UT football to the stone ages.

What if Dooley had kept Wilcox as DC in '12 with that O? We're all talking about the Dooley years in a different light, aren't we?

Shoop was very close to be Jones' Dave Clawson. Yeah, injuries, whatever. Sh*T happens. As I've mentioned prior, the margin is razor thin.
 
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