Josh Dobbs - NFL Draft thread (merged)

#501
#501
KBVol said:
Whole lotta snark and smartarse in this post...I'll try not to return the sentiment.

1. "Leading the Vols to a national championship" isn't tangible at all, speaks not to whether or not he was a better qb than Dobbs. Simple way to prove this is to ask "was he a better Tennessee qb than Manning or Shuler, neither of whom "led Tennessee to a national title"? No, of course not, that's silly. In the NFL, think Dilfer and Marino...who has a Super Bowl ring, who was the better qb? I could further this point with myriad other similar questions, I won't belabor the point. So your "tangible" statement really means nothing to this debate.

2. I turn 50 this year, been a UT fan since the mid 70s when Battle was the head coach, UT grad class of '90, now have two young adult children. So even though I recognized that as a poor attempt at insult, you're even wrong there making that "assertion"

3. My declaration that Dobbs was exponentially better than Martin is neither absurd nor is it ignorant. Compare honestly, if you're capable, the circumstances that surrounded them/the status of the program during their respective tenures at Tennessee....Martin stepped into the best or second best era of Tennessee football all-time, all-sec and all-American players all over the place, ton of future NFL players. Dobbs? None of that....this will the first year in the last 3 that we'll have anybody even drafted.

4. What an incredibly ignorant and lazy thing to point out .... ONE singular, outlier game when Tee completed 23-24 passes vs a 1-10 SCar team? That's what you cite? How about the totality of the rest of his career....he was a 54% passer, behind those great OLs, handing off to those great rbs, throwing to those future NFL WRs. Dobbs has had none of that benefit (throw in he also didn't have anywhere near those great defenses Martin played with) with exception of maybe a great running back, who hardly ever even got to play (AK).

I'll also add that Dobbs went 31-34 (91%) last year vs Vandy and 69-86 (80.2%) the last 4 regular season games. You can hang your hat on that ONE anomaly game and a 55.4 career completion % with Tee.....I'll ride with Dobbs who had much more consistency, more wins where he carried his team and 61.5 career completion %. I think I'll also add Dobbs' 65 total tds his last 2 seasons. (18 more than Tee)...I'll spare you in the rushing comparisons, it's not pretty.

In the same year, 1998, that he completed 23-24 passes vs SCar, he went 9-26 vs Syracuse, 10-27 vs Arky (including 0-4 the final drive before Stoerner's unlikely fumble when UT needed him to be clutch), threw for all of 64 yards vs Florida. Oftentimes Tee's poor QB play in 1998 was the issue, was the problem, was the reason the defense had to play great, was the reason Tee himself had to come up with that one big play/throw to win the game/salvage the season. If you were around, watching and paying attention in 1998, there's no way you don't recall all the angst and criticism amongst the fans and media about Tee's play.

5. I can agree that Tee was a gamer.....in 1998. I mentioned in previous posts that Tee had a penchant for playing poorly for most of the game, only to come up with that big throw at big times....as a junior in 1998....before regressing (12 tds 9 ints as a senior) in 1999. While Josh took a big jump in progression and play from his junior to senior seasons, which now has him as a solid mid to late round NFL draft pick, Martin regressed despite playing on what many believed was team in 99 than 98.

In summation, Dobbs was a better athlete, far better runner, far more accurate passer (especially as he went further into his career) and had more consistency across multiple seasons. So I'll say it again.....imho, Dobbs was exponentially better than Tee as a UT qb, every way you can objectively measure them says so.

Hitting "send" now.
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Weak. Next time put forth a little effort.
 
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#502
#502
Iam4utalways said:
I'll make it easy for you.

Rate each one JD vs Tee on a scale from 1-10.

Peyton - 10?
Shuler - 9
Andy Kelly - 8
Peanut - 9?
Iceman - 8
Tee - 9
JD - 9
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Where's Tony Robinson? Who is Peanut? Where's Bobby Scott? Where's Holloway? Where's Dewey Warren?

I stated to D4H in another thread that JD is not a top ten QB at UT. I will stand by it. Loved him and the way he played for the Vols, just giving my honest rating of him.
 
#503
#503
114VOL said:
Where's Tony Robinson? Who is Peanut? Where's Bobby Scott? Where's Holloway? Where's Dewey Warren?

I stated to D4H in another thread that JD is not a top ten QB at UT. I will stand by it. Loved him and the way he played for the Vols, just giving my honest rating of him.
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Bobby Scott is very underrated.
 
#504
#504
114VOL said:
Where's Tony Robinson? Who is Peanut? Where's Bobby Scott? Where's Holloway? Where's Dewey Warren?

I stated to D4H in another thread that JD is not a top ten QB at UT. I will stand by it. Loved him and the way he played for the Vols, just giving my honest rating of him.
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Peanut is Holloway.

JD is top 20

I'm not qualified to rate every Vol QB.

If a QB is winning Championships at UT, they are pretty good. Even if they don't win Championships for UT, they are still pretty good.

Every team is different as well as every player has strengths and weaknesses.

I enjoy splitting hairs as much as the next guy, but JD vs Tee is like comparing an Easter Dinner vs a Thanksgiving Dinner.

Keep it friendly folks.

Vol on Vol crime doesn't pay.

Y'all are a bunch of "old people". No offense to "old people".

Go Vols!
 
#505
#505
Iam4utalways said:
Peanut is Holloway.

JD is top 20

I'm not qualified to rate every Vol QB.

If a QB is winning Championships at UT, they are pretty good. Even if they don't win Championships for UT, they are still pretty good.

Every team is different as well as every player has strengths and weaknesses.

I enjoy splitting hairs as much as the next guy, but JD vs Tee is like comparing an Easter Dinner vs a Thanksgiving Dinner.

Keep it friendly folks.

Vol on Vol crime doesn't pay.

Y'all are a bunch of "old people". No offense to "old people".

Go Vols!
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Nice assessment
 
#507
#507
Iam4utalways said:
I'll make it easy for you.

Rate each one JD vs Tee on a scale from 1-10.

Peyton - 10?
Shuler - 9
Andy Kelly - 8
Peanut - 9?
Iceman - 8
Tee - 9
JD - 9
Click to expand...

What in the world leads you to rank Tee Martin that high, equal to Shuler and Dobbs and ahead of Clausen? Show your work and try to do it with a straight face please.
 
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#508
#508
KBVol said:
What in the world leads you to rank Tee Martin that high, equal to Shuler and Dobbs and ahead of Clausen? Show your work and try to do it with a straight face please.
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Well fine. Put him at a 7. It's apples to apples. They are both apples.
 
#509
#509
Iam4utalways said:
Well fine. Put him at a 7. It's apples to apples. They are both apples.
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Lol. Good job sticking to your guns. You did well to back off original thought/ranking imo, good job. 7, maybe 6 is more appropriate. Ainge was also a better qb than Martin despite some ups and downs. More talented, more productive.
 
#510
#510
KBVol said:
Lol. Good job sticking to your guns. You did well to back off original thought/ranking imo, good job. 7, maybe 6 is more appropriate. Ainge was also a better qb than Martin despite some ups and downs. More talented, more productive.
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I always thought exponentially, would mean a greater difference.

I don't remember Tee having such a glaring weakness as JD. But even with his accuracy issues(struggled with moving targets), JD rates high and ranks high, just like Tee does.

They are closer to being the same than they are different.
 
#511
#511
Iam4utalways said:
I always thought exponentially, would mean a greater difference.

I don't remember Tee having such a glaring weakness as JD. But even with his accuracy issues(struggled with moving targets), JD rates high and ranks high, just like Tee does.

They are closer to being the same than they are different.
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I remember.

Tee had much worse accuracy issues (outside of throwing a beautiful deep ball) and he couldn't get through his progressions. Heard Ainge (among others) discussing this. Tee got a tremendous amount of criticism for his poor play at Tennessee, even during the title run in '98. The passage of time plays tricks one's memory.

What Tee did have, at least in 98, was the ability/penchant for making the big, clutch play at opportune times, even in the midst of a poor game.....the big run which set up the game-winning fg at Syracuse after a 9-26 passing performance.....the td pass to Price vs Florida despite only throwing for 64 yards that game....the 2 td passes in a minute in the SEC championship game in the midst of a 15-32 day throwing the ball.

He also was a very average runner/scrambler, nowhere near the elite class Dobbs is in.
 
#512
#512
Iam4utalways said:
They are closer to being the same than they are different.
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not really, and this is, again, jr/sr to jr/sr years only:

Passing:
430 comp/701 att, 61.3% for Josh
318 comp/572 att, 55.6% for Tee
5237 yards for Josh
4481 yards for Tee
42 Td's for Josh
31 for Tee
17 int for Josh
15 for Tee

keep in mind that includes the 23/24 game against USCe, and he still winds up just over 55%.

rushing:
296 att/1502 yards, 5.1 YPC for Josh
184 att/604 yards, 3.4 YPC for Tee
23 TD's for Josh, 16 TD's for Tee
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Tee wasn't asked to do a whole lot. Josh was. two completely different circumstances, and two different teams.

but think about that for a second....Tee Martin was on a team that won a national title and won 10 games the next season....and they never let him "loose"?

if there was ever a team that an average QB could have looked a lot better than he was, it was on those two teams.

which i think speaks even more to just how average a QB as he was. and i don't want this to come off like i don't like the guy, i do, and i appreciate what he did.

but it's revisionist history to remember him as this icon of a qb, when he simply wasn't. he's our trent dilfer. and that's ok.:thumbsup:
 
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#514
#514
KBVol said:
I remember.

Tee had much worse accuracy issues (outside of throwing a beautiful deep ball) and he couldn't get through his progressions. Heard Ainge (among others) discussing this. Tee got a tremendous amount of criticism for his poor play at Tennessee, even during the title run in '98. The passage of time plays tricks one's memory.

What Tee did have, at least in 98, was the ability/penchant for making the big, clutch play at opportune times, even in the midst of a poor game.....the big run which set up the game-winning fg at Syracuse after a 9-26 passing performance.....the td pass to Price vs Florida despite only throwing for 64 yards that game....the 2 td passes in a minute in the SEC championship game in the midst of a 15-32 day throwing the ball.

He also was a very average runner/scrambler, nowhere near the elite class Dobbs is in.
Click to expand...

Yep. Tee's senior year was much better than his junior year. Tee also didn't get to play much until his junior season. Dobbs, as a result of poor QBs in front of him and injuries to others, became a starter midway through his freshman season. It's hard to compare
 
#516
#516
jakez4ut said:
not really, and this is, again, jr/sr to jr/sr years only:



Tee wasn't asked to do a whole lot. Josh was. two completely different circumstances, and two different teams.

but think about that for a second....Tee Martin was on a team that won a national title and won 10 games the next season....and they never let him "loose"?

if there was ever a team that an average QB could have looked a lot better than he was, it was on those two teams.

which i think speaks even more to just how average a QB as he was. and i don't want this to come off like i don't like the guy, i do, and i appreciate what he did.

but it's revisionist history to remember him as this icon of a qb, when he simply wasn't. he's our trent dilfer. and that's ok.:thumbsup:
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No one said he was an icon. Neither was Dobbs though.
 
#517
#517
114VOL said:
Yep. Tee's senior year was much better than his junior year. Tee also didn't get to play much until his junior season. Dobbs, as a result of poor QBs in front of him and injuries to others, became a starter midway through his freshman season. It's hard to compare
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except that it's not. see above.:thumbsup:
 
#519
#519
114VOL said:
No one said he was an icon. Neither was Dobbs though.
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when you make blanket statements like "he went undefeated and won a national title, is that tangible enough?", or "he went 23/24 against USCe", then you're bringing "accomplishment" in to the equation. icon, legendary, pick an adjective....it was implied in one of your responses as it being the sole reasons he's better....according to you anyway.
 
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#521
#521
114VOL said:
Yep. Tee's senior year was much better than his junior year. Tee also didn't get to play much until his junior season. Dobbs, as a result of poor QBs in front of him and injuries to others, became a starter midway through his freshman season. It's hard to compare
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wrong again. he was 54% compl rate, lower YPA, lower ave YPC, fewer TDs and more Int's and 20 points lower in overall rating.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tee-martin-1.html
 
#522
#522
jakez4ut said:
except that it's not. see above.:thumbsup:
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Yes it is as they played in two totally different offenses. Totally different circumstances surrounded each player. Reading comprehension seems to be an issue for a lot of posters in this forum.
 
#524
#524
114VOL said:
Yes it is as they played in two totally different offenses. Totally different circumstances surrounded each player. Reading comprehension seems to be an issue for a lot of posters in this forum.
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that you have conveniently ignored. for someone that speaks about comprehension so much, it's curious how you've ignored my specific commentary on the issue of "circumstance".

i''ll be happy to reiterate it for some of the slower folks here, if need be.:thumbsup:
 
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