ESPN's Todd McShay: "I think Dobbs got a chance to be a solid starter in the NFL."

#101
#101
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
You must be 12 years old.

All the passing numbers are inflated now. I'm sure you could post stats for Matt Stafford and they would look better than Elway as well.

How about you compare the team records? How about you post the Colts and Broncos team records the 5 years BEFORE Elway and Luck arrived and the 5 years AFTER?

That way we'll know which player turned around a franchise and which one made the franchise regress.
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The Colts won exactly 2 more games in the 5 years before Luck. Also, Luck was replacing a HoFer in Peyton and Elway was replacing a bum in Steve DeBerg.....who he couldn't even supplant as the starter in 83.
 
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#102
#102
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
You must be 12 years old.

All the passing numbers are inflated now. I'm sure you could post stats for Matt Stafford and they would look better than Elway as well.

How about you compare the team records? How about you post the Colts and Broncos team records the 5 years BEFORE Elway and Luck arrived and the 5 years AFTER?

That way we'll know which player turned around a franchise and which one made the franchise regress.
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It's amazingly stupid to claim that Luck made the Colts regress. He hasn't had near the supporting cast that Manning had on offense. they had 2 perennial all-pros on the offensive line when Manning was there. I will never say Luck is as good as Elway, but he's pretty darn good. It's delusional to put Dobbs' name anywhere close to the level of Luck. It's much more likely that Dobbs will never be a regular starting QB in the NFL than one that develops into a regular starter.
 
#104
#104
hndog609 said:
And here's where you are soooooo predictable.

1. If all we were discussing was pure passing yardage there could be some merit given to your observation. Comp%, TD%, INT% and rating not nearly as much. Of course you know this but ignore it as it does nothing to further your argument.

2. And this was actually the point; to trap you once again in your little circle of "it's team wins" NO WAIT "it's individual stats" whenever one or the other suits your immediate self-serving observation. Funny how you shot right past that Elway clearly had an advantage in his rushing game and defensive side of the equation. (Actually it wasn't funny at all...it was 100% expected)

Individual accomplishments are just that...nothing more. Team accomplishments are just that...nothing more. The best player to ever play can be put on a bad team and what you'll have is a great player on an improved but still bad team. You will always...ALWAYS look the fool when you try to extrapolate individual prowess in team success or failure.
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Actually those numbers are inflated as well. What happened wasn't just that teams started throwing the ball a lot more now. What happened was the rules got changed to make it easier to pass. Holding is now more stringently called. In the past receivers were held much further down the field. In the past safeties and linebackers would light up any receiver that tried catching the ball in the middle of the field. Now it's called a targeting penalty.

If you can't understand why comparing ANY passing stats from today to the past is simply not fair then I just can't help.

The NFL is totally different now compared to any other era in the past when it comes to how easy it is to pass the ball.
 
#105
#105
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Actually those numbers are inflated as well. What happened wasn't just that teams started throwing the ball a lot more now. What happened was the rules got changed to make it easier to pass. Holding is now more stringently called. In the past receivers were held much further down the field. In the past safeties and linebackers would light up any receiver that tried catching the ball in the middle of the field. Now it's called a targeting penalty.

If you can't understand why comparing ANY passing stats from today to the past is simply not fair then I just can't help.

The NFL is totally different now compared to any other era in the past when it comes to how easy it is to pass the ball.
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LOL, yet at the end of the day, your hero was really not a very good passer.
 
#108
#108
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Actually those numbers are inflated as well. What happened wasn't just that teams started throwing the ball a lot more now. What happened was the rules got changed to make it easier to pass. Holding is now more stringently called. In the past receivers were held much further down the field. In the past safeties and linebackers would light up any receiver that tried catching the ball in the middle of the field. Now it's called a targeting penalty.

If you can't understand why comparing ANY passing stats from today to the past is simply not fair then I just can't help.

The NFL is totally different now compared to any other era in the past when it comes to how easy it is to pass the ball.
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You're so cute when you think you're clever. Actually as stated earlier the primary purpose was to again out your "it's a team game...unless I'm arguing it isn't at this particular moment" approach. Still, you've brought up an interesting question. OK, let's apples and apples this thing. We're still looking at the first 5 seasons but we'll throw out Luck's injury 2015 and Elway's rookie year since both saw limited playing time.

So of the remaining we'll take the average of how their play compared to their peers of their day, same rules etc. (side note...sonuvabeeatch I'd have liked to have seen what Marino would have done today...damn)

Completion % Advantage Elway
Elway 16.5
Luck 23.5

Yards Almost a push, advantage Elway
Elway 7.5
Luck 7.75

TD's Almost a push, advantage Luck
Elway 9
Luck 8.75

TD% Slight advantage Luck
Elway 15.25
Luck 13.25

Rating Almost a push, advantage Elway
Elway 14.25
Luck 15

So when one compares the two against each other under contextually the same criteria it's basically a push. But when one considers the previously mentioned superiority of other facets of Elway's teams vs Luck's the difference, what there is of it, becomes even smaller or disappears entirely.
 
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#109
#109
114VOL said:
It's amazingly stupid to claim that Luck made the Colts regress. He hasn't had near the supporting cast that Manning had on offense. they had 2 perennial all-pros on the offensive line when Manning was there. I will never say Luck is as good as Elway, but he's pretty darn good. It's delusional to put Dobbs' name anywhere close to the level of Luck. It's much more likely that Dobbs will never be a regular starting QB in the NFL than one that develops into a regular starter.
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Manning made those guys into all-pros. I remember watching the Colts all those years start no-names at LT. I saw Peyton turning Brandon Stockley into a legit WR. I saw Peyton turn Joseph Addai into a good RB.

There is a reason the elite QBs like Manning, Rodgers, and Brady get their respect. Its because they make those around them better. Luck doesn't do that. He doesn't make those around him any better. That is why I said he is a good QB NOT a great one.

Under normal circumstances, drafting a good but not great QB at #1 overall doesn't make you a bust. However, Luck didn't come into the league under normal circumstances. He was hyped as the best prospect ever. He came into the NFL with the same hype LeBron James came into the NBA. If LeBron James became just a good NBA player rather than the best, people would be calling him a bust.

I'm just holding Luck up to the standard he came into the NFL with.
 
#110
#110
BearCat204 said:
The Colts won exactly 2 more games in the 5 years before Luck. Also, Luck was replacing a HoFer in Peyton and Elway was replacing a bum in Steve DeBerg.....who he couldn't even supplant as the starter in 83.
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I highly doubt D4H knew who Elways predecessor was.
 
#111
#111
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Manning made those guys into all-pros. I remember watching the Colts all those years start no-names at LT. I saw Peyton turning Brandon Stockley into a legit WR. I saw Peyton turn Joseph Addai into a good RB.

There is a reason the elite QBs like Manning, Rodgers, and Brady get their respect. Its because they make those around them better. Luck doesn't do that. He doesn't make those around him any better. That is why I said he is a good QB NOT a great one.

Under normal circumstances, drafting a good but not great QB at #1 overall doesn't make you a bust. However, Luck didn't come into the league under normal circumstances. He was hyped as the best prospect ever. He came into the NFL with the same hype LeBron James came into the NBA. If LeBron James became just a good NBA player rather than the best, people would be calling him a bust.

I'm just holding Luck up to the standard he came into the NFL with.
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First, you would be the first person to state that a QB would make an offensive Tackle an All Pro. Secondly, while Luck was highly regarded as a great NFL prospect at QB, he wasn't considered the best ever to come out and on the level than LeBron was in basketball coming into the league.
 
#112
#112
BearCat204 said:
First, you would be the first person to state that a QB would make an offensive Tackle an All Pro. Secondly, while Luck was highly regarded as a great NFL prospect at QB, he wasn't considered the best ever to come out and on the level than LeBron was in basketball coming into the league.
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I followed that draft quite closely and remember hearing the LeBron comparisons. It may not have been ubiquitous but it was mentioned. Just read the pre-draft reports on Luck. Scouts were saying it was hard to even find a negative or weakness in his game.

He was hyped as the best QB prospect ever. Or at the very least the best since Elway in 1983. People didn't even mention Manning when they talked about Luck because it was assumed he was a better prospect than Peyton Manning.

Stop trying to rewrite history. Andrew Luck came into the NFL with unprecedented hype. That is why he gets so little criticism now. People are just giving him every benefit of the doubt cause they rated him so highly to begin with.
 
#113
#113
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
I followed that draft quite closely and remember hearing the LeBron comparisons. It may not have been ubiquitous but it was mentioned. Just read the pre-draft reports on Luck. Scouts were saying it was hard to even find a negative or weakness in his game.

He was hyped as the best QB prospect ever. Or at the very least the best since Elway in 1983. People didn't even mention Manning when they talked about Luck because it was assumed he was a better prospect than Peyton Manning.

Stop trying to rewrite history. Andrew Luck came into the NFL with unprecedented hype. That is why he gets so little criticism now. People are just giving him every benefit of the doubt cause they rated him so highly to begin with.
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Rewrite history? Kid,you are an expert in doing that. I didn't say he wasn't hyped coming in, but he wasn't touted as a LeBron coming in other than from one dumb newspaper columnist (KC Star) . Most expected him to be very good and when he get some decent talent around him, he will do very well. Stop acting like he has been **** since he has been in the league.
 
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#114
#114
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
First of all the 2-14 year was an aberration since they didn't have a QB at all that season cause Peyton got hurt. They never planned for it since he has was so consistent. Before that outlier year they were always winning 11-12 games a year.

Sure Luck had some success his first few years. But so have other QBs who ultimately became busts. RG3 had a better rookie year. Kaepernick led his team to a super bowl in his second season. Vince Young won rookie of the year and then led Tennessee to the playoffs his second season. A number of eventual busts have won a lot of games early in their careers.

The last couple of years are more telling about a QB. Typically the great QBs get better as they get older. Peyton Manning never regressed after his first 3 years and started missing the playoffs or losing half of his starts.

People just need to face the fact that they were wrong about Andrew Luck. He was not generational prospect. He was not even the best QB prospect from his own class. Russell Wilson has exceeded him from his own draft class. Based on the hype he came into the league with, Andrew Luck has been a bust.
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By this definition and based on last year's results, Dobbs would be a bust. I say this to point out your incompetency about anything football because Josh Dobbs could never be considered a bust.
 
#115
#115
hndog609 said:
So you want to make a comparison? Ok. Through their first 5 seasons.

Yards
Elway 14835 (210.38pg)
Luck 19078 (272.5pg)

Comp %
Elway 53.6
Luck 59.2

TD
Elway 85 (3.88%)
Luck 132 (5.0%)

Int
Elway 77 (3.72)
Luck 68 (2.6)

Rating
Elway 72.86
Luck 87.3

Team's avg rushing ranking
Elway 16
Luck 23

Team's avg defensive yardage ranking
Elway 15
Luck 23

So let's recap; through their first 5 season Luck trounces Elway in yardage, comp%, TD's and rating all while throwing fewer int's and having a worse rushing game and defense to help out.

You really aren't good at this...are you?
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Take away is that Elway was a bigger bust than Luck.







Sarcasm
 
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#116
#116
How can Luck be a bust? He didn't create the hype, stupid people with too much time on their hands did. Those people are the bust.

Kinda like people that are creating hype about Dobbs......
 
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