Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

#451
#451
sjt18 said:
I'm going to guess none. But some GA for another SEC team will listen and feed the info to their coaches who will in turn spin it into a reason not to believe in Jones.



All coaches tell recruits not to listen to the media including Jones but then turn right around and emphasize what the media is saying about a rival or any faux pas like this one.

Making mountains out of mole hills is part of the art of recruiting. Do you think Pruitt's supposed attitude issues and unpopularity hasn't been used by UT and others with common recruiting targets?
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Recruits are smart enough to know what Jones said and didn't say. Jones recruiting history says you're wrong. Logic as well says you're wrong.
 
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#452
#452
I agree in theory with Butch, especially when you inherit a program that was as down as UT. UT was further down than Florida by miles. Florida program wasn't producing wins but had a roster full of 4 and 5 star players and a top notch defense. So you can't compare UT and Florida. You can't compare Michigan because they were the same way, maybe not as many 4 and 5 stars but they do play in the Big 10.
 
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#453
#453
MikeVol44 said:
Sorry--but I haven't seen either of them get out-coached by CBJ..........I know....I know.....but don't confuse actual wins for actually out-coaching your opponent......
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Strongly disagree with the two USCs games. Butch flat out-coached Steve both times. The first game, the talent favored USCe; the second time it favored the Vols. Our coaching was better than theirs both times.

Don't know why, but Butch's game calling skills just match up very favorably with the Old Ball Sack's.

I think Butch out-motivated Richt. It was more a motivational difference than a coaching advantage, seemed to me.

Having said that, all three of those games (USCe '13, USCe '14, and UGa '15) were team wins. Gotta give credit to the players, too, and equally.

Just like the losses this year have been team losses (and yes, I think Bielema and Stoops outcoached Butch. I think Butch and Saban showed equal levels of game calling skill, that one's a wash).
 
#454
#454
AirGator said:
Serious question-- what would be enough for you all to want to keep Jones? Let's say he wins 8-10 games a year, loses to Florida two out of three times or more on average, wins the SEC once every six or seven years--basically mirrors what Richt has done at Georgia-- would that be enough for you to want to keep him? Would that be a success to you? I'm just curious.
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Too early for me to decide. The stank of late Phil, Kiffin, and Dooley is still wafting about.
 
#455
#455
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Every team's situation is unique and TN will have to develop several rather than reload in order to have their peak roster. TN isn't a state loaded with 5 stars ready to play full time from day one. It hasn't been as easy lately to get those from other areas that are game ready to come to TN, but it has been trending up. Alabama, LSU, Georgia, and Florida don't have the same challenge as TN in the recruiting wars. Butch seems to have TN moving in the right direction. By year 6 or 7 maybe it will be easier to reload.
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I agree 100%.....but I don't believe it will continue trending up if we keep losing games like we did this year to OK and Florida.....And honestly--Arky outscored us 24-6 after we were up 14-0 in the first QTR.....

None of our remaining opponents have the talent that we do on the field...even with all of our injuries this year....and no reason we shouldn't win out...

Another good victory in a bowl game against a quality opponent should remedy any recruiting damage suffered by our early losses.....
 
#456
#456
IPleadInsanity said:
I swear, Butch can do the coach speak better and longer than anyone I have ever seen. Today he said USC was a threat because they will attack us with their special teams. The only time he is close to being real is on the injury updates.
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They do have one of the better special teams units we will face this year. 247 didn't a position by position breakdown and had us even with them at several positions. They are pretty bad on defense but could put up some points on us,especially with Cooper and Wilds.This won't be one of those 21-10 type games. I can see us winning 35-21 or 42-28 type scores.
 
#457
#457
sjt18 said:
OK. Good answer. Still can't agree with Jones' statement completely or the wisdom of it. But I understand your line of reasoning.

I'm also one who really doesn't buy the "you have to have a two deep made up of Jrs and Srs to win" line. I think having Sophs and even Fr playing early is good and necessary.... if you want the best recruits to come play for you.

I still think attrition is a FAR bigger issue for Jones than the age of players.

Of course we do not know what attrition will be yet for the '15 class. The '13 class has been very bad (41%). The '14 class has been better (26%) though some of the players lost were at key positions. This simply has to improve.
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I think we're agreeing a whole lot more than we're disagreeing, SJT. Including on the attrition issue. :good!:
 
#458
#458
MikeVol44 said:
I agree 100%.....but I don't believe it will continue trending up if we keep losing games like we did this year to OK and Florida.....

...

Another good victory in a bowl game against a quality opponent should remedy any recruiting damage suffered by our early losses.....
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If I'm a 4* or 5* recruit, and I see that Tennessee came within a cat's whisker of beating both OK and FL, the first thing I'm thinking to myself is: hey, if I were there, I could make up that difference myself. All they need is me, and the Vols are winning championships!"

So I don't think close losses to really good programs are the huge negative message you maybe think they are.

I do agree with you that winning a good bowl game helps with recruiting. Bowl season is special that way.

Go Vols!
 
#459
#459
That might be true but expectations for next year will stlll be high and the year after that the bar will go up more. Maybe he's thinking drop off after next year because a new QB will be leading the team. :cray:
 
#460
#460
Dear Coach: Please don't make comments like this.

I would say that it's harder to rebuild in the SEC than any other conference in the country--but a MILE, just look at our schedule combined with the fact that we must get three-quarters of our players from other states, and I wish Jones had just said that.
 
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#461
#461
VFL-82-JP said:
Strongly disagree with the two USCs games. Butch flat out-coached Steve both times. The first game, the talent favored USCe; the second time it favored the Vols. Our coaching was better than theirs both times.

Sorry....but no way the USCe wins of 2013 and 2014 are credited to superior offensive coaching by CBJ and crew --NOT even close....

go back and watch the 2013 tape.....just how in the world did Butch out-coach Spurrier?? Have you forgotten that his QB, Shaw, got hurt with 5 minutes remaining in the game???? And--even then--it took a wing and a prayer to pull that game out....

We survived on a prayer to North (in spite of the interference that wasn't called)...and managed to eek out a win--truly a TEAM win...but it wasn't better coaching that had Worley throw up a 4th down prayer of a pass to North in order to extend the drive--was it???

Last year--our DC continued to put us in press coverage and in situations that Spurrier capitalized on--getting Cooper manned up against Coleman was coaching genius and then throwing it to him deep.....and our DC never adjusted....

Spurrier's defense last year was pathetic....but--in all honesty--and as I said before--our players--namely Josh Dobbs--just refused to lose that game in spite of the pathetic game plan.....truly a TEAM win, also....

I believe in giving credit where it's due--but please--NEITHER of our CBJ's wins against Spurrier were the product of superior coaching....

I will agree to just disagree with you here and allow you to review the game films for yourself to refresh your memory....:peace2:
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#462
#462
armchair said:
Dear Coach: Please don't make comments like this.

I would say that it's harder to rebuild in the SEC than any other conference in the country--but a MILE, just look at our schedule combined with the fact that we must get three-quarters of our players from other states, and I wish Jones had just said that.
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Context my man. He didn't say what some are reporting. Context matters.
 
#463
#463
VFL-82-JP said:
If I'm a 4* or 5* recruit, and I see that Tennessee came within a cat's whisker of beating both OK and FL, the first thing I'm thinking to myself is: hey, if I were there, I could make up that difference myself. All they need is me, and the Vols are winning championships!"

So I don't think close losses to really good programs are the huge negative message you maybe think they are.

I do agree with you that winning a good bowl game helps with recruiting. Bowl season is special that way.

Go Vols!
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I see what you are saying and do agree--a recruit could think that way--and I want them to think that way--

However--a recruit "on the fence" --or from out-of-state-- could also think that this staff has enough talent to win those close games--but they don't get it done.

I want to play for CHAMPIONSHIPS--and I don't think those guys have enough coaching ability to get me there....but LSU, Fla, Bama, even Ole Sis--they are winning those games....maybe I would have a better shot at one of those schools......

And--if I'm another coach in the SEC --or a family member of a recruit-----that's exactly what I'm gonna say.....promises, promises, promises--but no truly big wins against the SEC elite to give credence to those promises.....and SEC champions have to beat Florida, Alabama, Auburn, and/or LSU.....

I HATE IT....but I think that's what we are up against at Tennessee MORE than anything else--and I cite McElwain's quote after our close game with him as exhibit A...."You just don't lose to Tennessee..."

Until we consistently "whoop dey azz"---it's true......Here's hoping that the azz-whoopin' by our VOLS starts for real next year!

GO VOLS! :salute:
 
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#464
#464
Lawrence Wright said:
Behold the power of hindsight....

UF had 6 scholarship offensive linemen this spring.

Our best defensive lineman left school early for the NFL.

Our best linebacker was coming off a gruesome knee injury.

Our offense couldn't score in a Vegas whorehouse.

Picked to finish fifth in the SEC East with a new coach and new offense...a coach who rode Saban's coat tails to a couple NCs at Bama with all-Madden talent.

Three months later and 83% of FBS head coaches can do what McElwain's pulling off in Gainesville.

Okay. :eek:lol: :good!:
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Come on LW....you know the narrative. Dude has bad teeth, doesn't use sunscreen, ain't Butch Jones....any coach in the country save 3 or 4 of em could do what McElwain has done. We even have guys saying if Saban was our coach right now, we wouldn't have 4 losses....we'd have 5.

You're a solid rival LW, and with all due respect, I can't stand the Florida Gators and am sick to my stomach with all the losses....and I couldn't give 2 ishes about Jim McElwain. But for people to completely dismiss what he's done in 10 months with that program...it's embarrassing. Just tip your cap and give the man his due...he's done a great job and is like for multiple COY awards.
 
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#465
#465
tnvols72 said:
It actually does take 6-7 years if you are Butch Jones and you are doing on the job training. He is just setting the fans up for next year when he has those in games melt downs.


Gators coache disagrees with BJ
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Gator coach didn't follow LK & DD.

;-)

TENNESSEEDUKE
 
#466
#466
Lawrence Wright said:
Behold the power of hindsight....

UF had 6 scholarship offensive linemen this spring.

Our best defensive lineman left school early for the NFL.

Our best linebacker was coming off a gruesome knee injury.

Our offense couldn't score in a Vegas whorehouse.

Picked to finish fifth in the SEC East with a new coach and new offense...a coach who rode Saban's coat tails to a couple NCs at Bama with all-Madden talent.

Three months later and 83% of FBS head coaches can do what McElwain's pulling off in Gainesville.

Okay. :eek:lol: :good!:
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I hate the Gators---but Lawrence--
This is the best post I've ever read on Volnation.........

And it is absolutely correct--EVERYONE had the gators written off for this year....me, too....

and fact is--we had 'em down for the 4th and 14 BLITZ PACKAGE of the century--until our DC went vaginal....after our OC and HC went vaginal on our prior possession.....

And McElwain has my vote for NATIONAL coach of the year....
 
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#468
#468
tvolsfan said:
The point is good coaches win quickly. If we're being honest, things usually get worse after 6-7 years, not better.
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For every example you give to back up this statement I can give you two examples to the contrary. If a coach lasts 6-7 years at a school they are usually solid coaches. No coach anywhere has a straight upward climb without set backs along the way.
 
#469
#469
bamawriter said:
This is one of the funniest arguments I've read on this forum. And there have been a lot of hilariously ridiculous arguments made on here.

Florida and McElwain get dogged the entire offseason, and suddenly it was always a given that they'd clinch the division by Halloween.
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You could go to the Bama forum where each post is punctuated by drool. I do wonder what passes for math on that board. Probably would have to use everyday experiences to get your fellow fans to understand the concept of numbers. You know....such as.....How many of your sisters did you get pregnant?
 
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#470
#470
VOLorNuttin said:
Shula was Bama's Dooley. Lack of coaching AND talent. Not either/or.
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Well except just two years before Saban was hired Shula's Bama team finished 8th in the country with losses only to LSU and Auburn both top 10 teams. He must have had and left some talent no? I remember that time Dooley finished in the top 10.

btw, Art Briles was 33-30 after 5 years at Baylor (8-5 in year 5) and Kevin Sumlin has had one good year at A&M unless 8-5 is considered good for a rebuilt program.
 
#471
#471
tnvols72 said:
It actually does take 6-7 years if you are Butch Jones and you are doing on the job training. He is just setting the fans up for next year when he has those in games melt downs.


Gators coach disagrees with BJ
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Make no mistake- Florida was not a rebuild. They had 10 years of top recruiting classes. Muschamp just didn't know how to be a head coach
 
#473
#473
I am always amazed at the lack of understanding and a lack of knowledge of the game of football on these threads.
 
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