Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

[TennesseeFan07]

Stupid post is stupid.

I would love for you to factually back up his accomplishments on the field at Tennessee to counter your argument.

 

[TheBigOne10]

We are Tennessee, not Vanderbilt. It should never take 6 years at Tennessee, under any circumstances whatsoever.

 

[Bluetic]

Great post. When one goes back and look at the data, it should be clear to every VOL fan that our football program is in great hands.

No...right now, one cant tell if its Jones or Dooley they are looking at. Jones may finish the year better, and I am pulling for him, but that chart goes ahead and gives him 9 wins this year. I'll take that, but he don't have it yet.
To be clear, I do think Jones is better than Dools, but the records aren't that different yet.

 

[VolFootballIsLife]

It actually does take 6-7 years if you are Butch Jones and you are doing on the job training. He is just setting the fans up for next year when he has those in games melt downs.


Gators coach disagrees with BJ

No matter your opinion on the article, Florida wasn't in "rebuild" like us. This isn't really relevant to the discussion at all. To your point, it would be more appropriate to reference ALA. Just food for thought while you're trying to send those zingers at Coach Jones.

In coach's defense, he said "build a program"; he didn't say we couldn't compete for championships along the way. This thing is so fragile now that people should realize we are one bad recruiting class away from going backward again.

 

[BeecherVol]

I honestly believe he would have ended up here, but there was some rift concerning walking recruiting violation Clint Hurtt. I don't know if Hart or Strong caved on that difference before the latter changed his mind.

That was in there as part of it.

I think Strong knew he had a 2 year window to land somewhere better and thought he would have a better situation somewhere else. From everything Ive heard Strong was very close to being here and it was his call that it didn't happen.

 

[508mikey]

It only takes that long, if the previous coach is a complete idiot

 

[volgrad500]

Well, to somewhere along the lines of a 70%+ solution, recruiting IS winning in college ball. That's pretty well substantiated. As Phil used to say, it's the Jimmys and the Joes, not the Xs and Os.

p.s. Your hatred of "Lyle" is palpable. Get over that, and maybe you'll enjoy your Vols more. Just an idea.

I don't hate him, I hate fans who believe that in year three we aren't allowed to voice an opinion about our coach. Many of these same people defended Dooley to the death. Hate to see you join that crowd.

 

[SURFSIDEBEACHVOL]

I can't believe the depth to which Lyle has convinced some fans to just believe everything he says. The man has turned recruiting into an acceptable substitution for winning and people don't bat an eye. The problem is, when he's been here 20 years or however long it takes for him to birth and raise the perfect roster, he will still be facing equal talent and better coaches. Having the very best talent is necessary to win in the SEC, it is not however, sufficient to win in the SEC. He will never be able to "out talent" our rivals, and he sure as hell isn't going to out coach them. We are wrapping up year three, and he has shown zero indications that he is a top tier coach.

This post is spot on. Hopefully he will correct his deficiencies, but at this point I am not hopeful.

 

[SURFSIDEBEACHVOL]

Great post. When one goes back and look at the data, it should be clear to every VOL fan that our football program is in great hands.

No it's not.

 

[BeecherVol]

Exactly. Most of the RS juniors and seniors for the next couple of years are only going to be because of injuries. Drew Richmond (if he stays) could be a RS junior in Butch's 6th year and a RS senior in Butch's 7th year. Butch had to put his first few signing classes on the field immediately. But writing an article about that doesn't draw clicks at all like "Butch said that it will take 6-7 years to rebuild the program".

**** storming and what not.

I have seen the RS SR/JR discussion come up here and other places. Is it me or does it just not seem like you see many of them across the elite programs anymore outside injuries. Ive never really done much research on what other teams have but it seems like nowadays unless you are injured a higher amount are "recruited" over and released instead of hanging on to them for 5 years. At a quick glance, it looks like UT has 6 or 7 in their 2 deep. I don't know how that compares to Bama, LSU, and UGA types (with longer tenured coaches) it may be well low of what those teams have. It just seems like that dynamic has changed over time with younger guys getting on the field sooner.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I don't hate him, I hate fans who believe that in year three we aren't allowed to voice an opinion about our coach. Many of these same people defended Dooley to the death. Hate to see you join that crowd.

Oh, you used "Lyle" as a perjorative, I assumed from that that you have a personal thing against him. If not, my bad.

No, I'm not a Butch fan, I'm a Vols fan. But that doesn't mean I won't support our coach 100% as long as (1) he's working hard for the program, (2) he's doing it the right way, reflecting Tennessee values and integrity and a focus on the players' development and well-being, and (3) he's achieving results.

I don't get flustered over little blips, like a game we shoulda won but lost. Life is messy and chaotic. You sometimes get to your goal by a COMPLETELY different path than you thought you were gonna take. Only the mouth breathers get so worked up over the varied path that they lose sight of the fact that they got to the goal.

This season has been kinda like that.

And as far as I can tell, he's doing all three of those things. Working his butt off, values intact, progress evident. So yep, I'm backing Butch 100%, without being a fanboi. :good!:

 

[99gator]

because all of the "talent" at Florida has been discussed, I thought I would list them in an effort to show why numbers don't tell the whole story.

So the next three posts will be the 2012, 2013 and 2014 Florida recruiting classes

2012
Dante Fowler (NFL)
Matt Jones (NFL)
DJ Humphries (NFL)
Damien Jacobs (JUCO-gone)
Marcus Maye (starter)
Jon Bullard (starter)
Alex McAllister (starter)
Antonio Morrison (starter)
Brian Poole (contributer)
Jeremi Powell (barely plays at position of need)
Latroy Pittman (doesn’t play)
Raph Andrades (doesn’t play)
Austin Hardin (benched for a walk-on)
Kent Taylor (transfer)
Sklyer Mornhinweg (transfer)
Colin Thompson (transfer)
Willie Bailey (transfer)
Jafar Mann (transfer)
Quinteze Williams (transfer)
Jessamen Dunker (transfer)

 

[99gator]

2013
Trenton Brown (JUCO-gone)
Darius Cummings (JUCO-gone)
Alex Anzalone (starter-injured)
Caleb Brantley (starter)
Jarrad Davis (starter)
Vernon Hargraeves III (starter)
Cameron Dillard (starter)
Keanu Neal (starter)
Demarcus Robinson (starter)
Kelvin Taylor (starter)
Johnny Townsend (starter)
Antonio Riles (benched for a true freshman)
Joey Ivie (contributer)
Nick Washington (contributer)
Chris Thompson (special teams buffer zone violator)
Jordan Sheritt (barely plays)
Ahmad Fulwood (barely plays)
Daniel McMillan (doesn’t play)
Matt Rolin (doesn’t play)
Alvin Bailey (doesn’t play)
Jaynard Bostwick (doesn’t play)
Marcel Harris (doesn’t play)
Octavius Jackson (medical-gone)
Rod Johnson (medical-gone)
Max Staver (transfer)
Marqui Hawkins (transfer)
Adam Lane (transfer)
Jarran Reed (transfer)
Trevon Young (transfer)

 

[99gator]

2014
Will Grier (starter-suspended)
Treon Harris (starter)
David Sharpe (starter)
Jalen Tabor (starter)
Quincy Wilson (contributer)
Brandon Powell (contributer)
Taven Bryan (contributer)
Duke Dawson (contributer)
Deandre Goolsby (contributer)
C’yontei Lewis (contributer)
Andrew Mike (doesn’t play)
CJ Worton (doesn’t play)
Justus Reed (doesn’t play)
Khairi Clark (doesn’t play)
Travaris Dorsey (doesn’t play)
Kavaris Harkless (doesn’t play)
Ryan Sousa (doesn’t play)
Moral Stephens (doesn’t play)
Thomas Holley (medical-may never play)
JC Jackson (dismissed)
Deiondre Porter (soon to be dismissed)
Drew Savary (medical-gone)
Nolan Kelleher (medical-gone)
Gerald Willis (transfer)

 

[Bluetic]

Have to pretty much agree. We wont ever be light years ahead of UF and Bama talent wise. There is simply no where to go from there but down. We must get them coached up. I'm not yet sure that Butch isn't the guy, but I would obviously, like all of us, have liked to see more improvement. That said, if we get to 9 wins AND pull another top 5 class, Butch is clearly on track.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

This thread suddenly took off!

Hof is right. Butch should do all his talking on the field and on recruits couches for awhile. He's getting dangerously close to "looking for Rommel" territory in the pressers.

If he even says the word "shower" or "analytics" he's going back in the EVH bad books.

 

[butchna]

This thread suddenly took off!

Hof is right. Butch should do all his talking on the field and on recruits couches for awhile. He's getting dangerously close to "looking for Rommel" territory in the pressers.

If he even says the word "shower" or "analytics" he's going back in the EVH bad books.

Oh no. :boredom:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

This thread suddenly took off!

Hof is right. Butch should do all his talking on the field and on recruits couches for awhile. He's getting dangerously close to "looking for Rommel" territory in the pressers.

If he even says the word "shower" or "analytics" he's going back in the EVH bad books.

Haha, I would absolutely love that. Butch say the words "Rommel" and "shower" in the same press conference, no matter the context. Would send a third of Vol Nation over the moon and out toward Mars.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Of course you have to look at the starting point. Not talking about guys who take over the Vols when we're winning 8, 9 games a year and continue the success (Neyland, Fulmer, others).

This chart shows the first three years (#wins) for each Tennessee coach throughout our history who faced a rebuilding job.

Some things jump right out at you: almost all of the coaches achieved success to one degree or another. Only Dooley took the team downhill. Even Wyatt had net gain over the three years, even though he regressed from Year 2 to Year 3.

The next thing you notice is that Jones' trend looks very similar to the trendlines of Johnny Majors and Z.G. Clevenger. All three heading steadily upward. What is less obvious at first glance is that Butch will outperform both of them if he wins out (including bowl win). Butch matches Doug Dickey's success in his first three years, as well. Being favorably compared to Dickey, Majors and Clevenger, that's pretty good company.

So yes, it hurt to lose to OK and FL after leading them for much of the game. Sucks, to be honest. And yes, it was clearly possible for Team 119 to have gone 11-2 rather than 9-4, if we'd held out to win those two matches.

But that hypothetical scenario would just ADD to Butch's success, which is already matching the best in our history for rebuilding eras. Those two almost-wins don't detract from what you see in this chart--they would've added to it.

No, Butch is the man. Those who are hating on him are wrong. He's definitely got the program moving in the right direction.

My disdain for Dooley increased with looking at your chart..

 

[jasonvol18]

Have to pretty much agree. We wont ever be light years ahead of UF and Bama talent wise. There is simply no where to go from there but down. We must get them coached up. I'm not yet sure that Butch isn't the guy, but I would obviously, like all of us, have liked to see more improvement. That said, if we get to 9 wins AND pull another top 5 class, Butch is clearly on track.

Agreed. Although I see no chance we land a top 5 class this year. Our class will be smaller than the last few years. We are #19 now and 7th in the SEC. Unless our committs get some serious bumps or we replace 3* guys with high 4* and 5* guys we won't even crack the top 10. Unless he somehow finds a way to sign 25,which I doubt we will be lucky to be top 12-15. But the most important thing is bringing more depth and SEC caliber players.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Agreed. Although I see no chance we land a top 5 class this year. Our class will be smaller than the last few years. We are #19 now and 7th in the SEC. Unless our committs get some serious bumps or we replace 3* guys with high 4* and 5* guys we won't even crack the top 10. Unless he somehow finds a way to sign 25,which I doubt we will be lucky to be top 12-15. But the most important thing is bringing more depth and SEC caliber players.

Recruiting is all just a means to an end. It's the end that is important. As long as Butch pulls in high-quality, talented players in the positions where we need them, adding to our chances of winning the East and maybe the SEC next year and years after, it doesn't matter if the class grades out at 12 or 18 or 24. :good!:

 

[BTS]

Look all I'm getting at is that I'd rather have a team properly built that becomes practically self-sustaining from year to year. That's what Alabama is. Alabama is self-sustaining. They do well enough every year that it's easy for the coaching staff to replenish what they lose to the NFL.

If I have to give up 5-6-7 years to have 10-15 years of self-sustaining championship-level quality, SOLD. I'd rather have that than hoping to catch a fire in a bottle with a Gene Chizik.

This will never happen . In todays game there will never be a cruise control . If you slack as a coach or a recruiter for even a year or two its going to show in the win lose column . if Jones doesn't get it done in 5yrs he wont ever get it done.

 

[triad280]

Im not making a comparison to tennessee

My bad then. I thought it was going to be your moron HC VS our moron HC IN THE 2012 years and how pathetic the attrition and talent was...

This is the only image suitable

 

[sjt18]

Or, you could be completely misunderstanding what the guy said.

Here's what he said: "it takes 6 or 7 years to build a program in the SEC."

Here's what he didn't say: "guys, we're not gonna win the East until year 6 or 7."

Here's another thing he didn't say: "folks, it'll be year 6 or 7 before we win in Atlanta in December."

Here's a third thing he did not say: "ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry but we can't compete for a national championship until I get all these broken pieces fixed in year 6 or 7."

A lot of folks on these boards are assuming he said one or more of those things.

He didn't say any of them.

OK. You've spun based on what he didn't mean... which you have no way of knowing. Tell us what he DID in fact mean if he wasn't trying to lower expectations for winning at a high level?

 

[jasonvol18]

Recruiting is all just a means to an end. It's the end that is important. As long as Butch pulls in high-quality, talented players in the positions where we need them, adding to our chances of winning the East and maybe the SEC next year and years after, it doesn't matter if the class grades out at 12 or 18 or 24. :good!:

Absolutely. We aren't yet on the Ala,USC or LSU level where we are consistently getting 5* guys who are top 10-15 players in the nation and top of their positions. But building depth at key positions with players that are SEC caliber will get us to the position where we start winning and can land some of those guys. Plus we don't have elite recruiters all over our coaching staff like Ala,USC,LSU and some others. A few upgrades could go a long way in helping with that also. I'm honestly shocked we have gotten the players we have with this coaching staff.