To Protect and to Serve...

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#4,376
#4,376
Carl Pickens said:
A friend of mine went into the hospital when we were in high school. Nurse gave him an injection....the wrong injection...... Feet went numb..... Numbness moved up his legs.... Staff realized the mistake..... Told the patents he'd be dead within the hour. He was..... Does this mean all nurses are bad?
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It doesn't even mean that particular nurse is bad (unless it was intentional), but it does mean that he/she made an egregious error of negligence, and somebody died because of it. It might even be that the nurse was doing something routine and became complacent or careless. Does that excuse her of culpability?

Grand might suggest that it relieves her of responsibility, and that we should just accept it as a mistake that could happen to anybody. These officers got complacent because they had fallen into a routine with this particular individual. I understand how it can happen (human nature), but it does not relieve them of their responsibility in the death of the mental patient.
 
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#4,377
#4,377
Cdywolfe said:
I can't speak for law-enforcement but I guarantee you in healthcare the cameras would be checked to ensure they were working properly at the beginning of every shift.

Once our blood sugar machines hit 12 hours since the last time they've been checked for quality control, they stop working. At the beginning of every shift the charge nurse has to check every crash cart to make sure everything is there, the defibrillator is working properly, none of the meds have expired, and so on. At shift change or anytime there is a change in settings all PCAs and heparin drips must be verified by a second nurse. Anytime I administer insulin the syringe must be checked by second nurse to verify I'm giving the proper amount.

I'm going to go ahead and stop there because I could literally go on all day about what we have to do to cover our asses. It's absolutely retarded the amount of time out of my day that is spent sitting at a computer documenting. You want to know why we have to do all this crap? Because, unlike some professions, we are actually held accountable when we screwup.

And one last thing while we're on the subject. It's not at all uncommon for patients to just go completely crazy, hit us, spit on us, and even times take items and try to use them as weapons. We managed to resolve those situations every time without killing anybody. Pretty crazy huh?
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...P9L1ZCxhFVhvzYb1Q&sig2=p823XkRvnRjN2B2gLYFpLg

Pretty crazy huh?
 
#4,378
#4,378
Cdywolfe said:
I can't speak for law-enforcement but I guarantee you in healthcare the cameras would be checked to ensure they were working properly at the beginning of every shift.

Once our blood sugar machines hit 12 hours since the last time they've been checked for quality control, they stop working. At the beginning of every shift the charge nurse has to check every crash cart to make sure everything is there, the defibrillator is working properly, none of the meds have expired, and so on. At shift change or anytime there is a change in settings all PCAs and heparin drips must be verified by a second nurse. Anytime I administer insulin the syringe must be checked by second nurse to verify I'm giving the proper amount.

I'm going to go ahead and stop there because I could literally go on all day about what we have to do to cover our asses. It's absolutely retarded the amount of time out of my day that is spent sitting at a computer documenting. You want to know why we have to do all this crap? Because, unlike some professions, we are actually held accountable when we screwup.

And one last thing while we're on the subject. It's not at all uncommon for patients to just go completely crazy, hit us, spit on us, and even times take items and try to use them as weapons. We managed to resolve those situations every time without killing anybody. Pretty crazy huh?
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Police employ lethal force on average 3000-4000 individuals a year.

Health care professionals kill anywhere from 100,000+ (some figures are absurdly high)

Pretty crazy, huh?
 
#4,379
#4,379
Grand Vol said:
Police employ lethal force on average 3000-4000 individuals a year.

Health care professionals kill anywhere from 100,000+ (some figures are absurdly high)

Pretty crazy, huh?
Click to expand...

Every time a loved one dies, my Mom tries to say the health care professionals messed up in some way. I would be very skeptical of any number reported.
 
#4,380
#4,380
#4,381
#4,381
#4,382
#4,382
Carl Pickens said:
A friend of mine went into the hospital when we were in high school. Nurse gave him an injection....the wrong injection...... Feet went numb..... Numbness moved up his legs.... Staff realized the mistake..... Told the patents he'd be dead within the hour. He was..... Does this mean all nurses are bad?
Click to expand...

Whoa, do you have any idea what it was they gave him?
 
#4,383
#4,383
Carl Pickens said:
A friend of mine went into the hospital when we were in high school. Nurse gave him an injection....the wrong injection...... Feet went numb..... Numbness moved up his legs.... Staff realized the mistake..... Told the patents he'd be dead within the hour. He was..... Does this mean all nurses are bad?
Click to expand...

Two things…

First, I'm sure the guilty parties were held accountable.

Second, I'd like to know a lot more details about that story. Saying that it sounds extremely far fetched would probably be generous. I'm not saying the guy didn't die due to medical error. But I do have serious doubts if it happened exactly like that. There are a few things that cause ascending paralysis like that, but I don't know of any of them that are going to kill you in an hour.
 
#4,384
#4,384
Cdywolfe said:
I can't speak for law-enforcement but I guarantee you in healthcare the cameras would be checked to ensure they were working properly at the beginning of every shift.

Once our blood sugar machines hit 12 hours since the last time they've been checked for quality control, they stop working. At the beginning of every shift the charge nurse has to check every crash cart to make sure everything is there, the defibrillator is working properly, none of the meds have expired, and so on. At shift change or anytime there is a change in settings all PCAs and heparin drips must be verified by a second nurse. Anytime I administer insulin the syringe must be checked by second nurse to verify I'm giving the proper amount.

I'm going to go ahead and stop there because I could literally go on all day about what we have to do to cover our asses. It's absolutely retarded the amount of time out of my day that is spent sitting at a computer documenting. You want to know why we have to do all this crap? Because, unlike some professions, we are actually held accountable when we screwup.

And one last thing while we're on the subject. It's not at all uncommon for patients to just go completely crazy, hit us, spit on us, and even times take items and try to use them as weapons. We managed to resolve those situations every time without killing anybody. Pretty crazy huh?
Click to expand...

I don't at all doubt that you are required to document and double check to that extent, but it really doesn't strike me as overboard or unnecessary. More along the lines of "a good start" and that it's unfortunate it's taken as long as it has for so many health systems to adopt similar standards and make the jump to comprehensive electronic health records.

Carl Pickens said:
A friend of mine went into the hospital when we were in high school. Nurse gave him an injection....the wrong injection...... Feet went numb..... Numbness moved up his legs.... Staff realized the mistake..... Told the patents he'd be dead within the hour. He was..... Does this mean all nurses are bad?
Click to expand...
n_huffhines said:
My friend was training to be a respiratory therapist and he stopped something similar from happening. He realized they had the wrong injection and alerted them. Probably save a life. It's crazy how often I hear this sort of thing.
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These types of unfortunate events happen a lot more frequently than people realize. A co-worker recently told me a story about a very similar situation that killed his grandfather. In fact, the exact thing that killed his grandfather (anti-coagulant incorrectly administered, causing him to internally bleed out) would have happened to me had my mother not grabbed the nurse's arm as she was in the process of sticking me with the syringe.

Grand Vol said:
Police employ lethal force on average 3000-4000 individuals a year.

Health care professionals kill anywhere from 100,000+ (some figures are absurdly high)

Pretty crazy, huh?
Click to expand...

As others have stated, I'm not quite sure the validity of the 100,000+ number, but I completely agree that it is significantly higher than those killed by lethal police force.
 
#4,385
#4,385
E-Tizzle said:
As others have stated, I'm not quite sure the validity of the 100,000+ number, but I completely agree that it is significantly higher than those killed by lethal police force.
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And at least the police won't send you a bill once it's all said and done.
 
#4,386
#4,386
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#4,387
#4,387
I also find it hilarious, not at all surprising though, that every one of you completely missed my point.

Healthcare professionals are generally held accountable when they screw up. That 100,00+ number that's being thrown around is actually proof that they're generally held accountable even when they didn't do anything wrong.

Hospitals are generally going to just settle because it's cheaper and way less publicity than a trial. My guess in each and everyone of those instances that's looked at by most as an admission of guilt and that death is deemed as caused by medical malpractice.
 
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#4,388
#4,388
Cdywolfe said:
I also find it hilarious, not at all surprising though, that every one of you completely missed my point.

Healthcare professionals are generally held accountable when they screw up. That 100,00+ number that's being thrown around is actually proof that they're generally held accountable even when they didn't do anything wrong.

Hospitals are generally going to just settle because it's cheaper and way less publicity than a trial. My guess in each and everyone of those instances that's looked at by most as an admission of guilt and that death is deemed as caused by medical malpractice.
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I think your point is valid, and I agree that in most cases where the victim (or family of victim) sues, there is a settlement that is, in effect, an admission of guilt and those at fault are, for the most part (that is the whole purpose of malpractice insurance, no?), held accountable. On the other hand, having to death with lawsuits, courts, and lawyers is such an expensive hassle - especially when sick, injured, or dealing with the deal of a loved one - that I would make an uneducated guess that a lot higher percentage of people in that situation do not follow through and force the health system's hand than the percentage of those who do not sue/settle with police departments after a similar ordeal.
 
#4,389
#4,389
Also… of those 100,000+ people that we're claiming were killed as a result of medical error, how many of them had several comorbidities that aided in their demise?

Because if we're using the same logic that Tim uses with law-enforcement, those shouldn't count right?
 
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#4,390
#4,390
Great guys....now I know I can't trust the law, or the medical professionals.....I'm going to go hide in my bedroom lol
 
#4,391
#4,391
Cdywolfe said:
I can't speak for law-enforcement but I guarantee you in healthcare the cameras would be checked to ensure they were working properly at the beginning of every shift.

Once our blood sugar machines hit 12 hours since the last time they've been checked for quality control, they stop working. At the beginning of every shift the charge nurse has to check every crash cart to make sure everything is there, the defibrillator is working properly, none of the meds have expired, and so on. At shift change or anytime there is a change in settings all PCAs and heparin drips must be verified by a second nurse. Anytime I administer insulin the syringe must be checked by second nurse to verify I'm giving the proper amount.

I'm going to go ahead and stop there because I could literally go on all day about what we have to do to cover our asses. It's absolutely retarded the amount of time out of my day that is spent sitting at a computer documenting. You want to know why we have to do all this crap? Because, unlike some professions, we are actually held accountable when we screwup.

And one last thing while we're on the subject. It's not at all uncommon for patients to just go completely crazy, hit us, spit on us, and even times take items and try to use them as weapons. We managed to resolve those situations every time without killing anybody. Pretty crazy huh?
Click to expand...

So you do all of those double checks just to "cover our asses"? I wonder if JCAHO or your hospital administrators would agree that is why you check to make sure the defribillators are working.

I'm glad I stopped by this thread today because I really thought you did those checks to keep a patient from being harmed. Who knew?
 
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#4,392
#4,392
Cdywolfe said:
I also find it hilarious, not at all surprising though, that every one of you completely missed my point.

Healthcare professionals are generally held accountable when they screw up. That 100,00+ number that's being thrown around is actually proof that they're generally held accountable even when they didn't do anything wrong.

Hospitals are generally going to just settle because it's cheaper and way less publicity than a trial. My guess in each and everyone of those instances that's looked at by most as an admission of guilt and that death is deemed as caused by medical malpractice.
Click to expand...

Also, just at the facility in which you work, has there been a case were an error on a staff members part resulted in a patient death?

I can think of 2 at organizations that I have worked and every employee with the exception of 1 involved are current employees of the organization. The 1 that is no longer practicing quit because she couldn't deal with what happened as the result of an error on her part. None served jail time or had civil suits broughts against them that wasn't settled by the organization.

Since you want to compare the 2 professions, what if the police department just paid these families to go away and not bring a bad name to the dept by going through a court case? Would you be okay with that?
 
#4,393
#4,393
Cdywolfe said:
Two things…

First, I'm sure the guilty parties were held accountable.

Second, I'd like to know a lot more details about that story. Saying that it sounds extremely far fetched would probably be generous. I'm not saying the guy didn't die due to medical error. But I do have serious doubts if it happened exactly like that. There are a few things that cause ascending paralysis like that, but I don't know of any of them that are going to kill you in an hour.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind this was over thirty years ago.... The hour may be inaccurate, but what I do remember for certain was that it was a spinal injection..... The numbness and paralysis began shortly afterwards.... Once it was determined that the wrong drug had been administered someone from the hospital staff called another hospital up north somewhere that had experienced the same thing to ask what options were available..... The reply was give him whatever you need to to make him comfortable because death is inevitable.... Paraphrase that however you like..... Question it.... Doubt it..... But the dude died and pretty quickly. I was 15 at the time and not really into the scientific details..... All I cared about was the fact that my friend died.
 
#4,394
#4,394
Cdywolfe said:
I also find it hilarious, not at all surprising though, that every one of you completely missed my point.
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I didn't miss your point. But I'll have a few questions to ask about this...

Cdywolfe said:
Healthcare professionals are generally held accountable when they screw up.
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In what way are they held accountable? And furthermore, who holds them accountable? When a death occurs in the hospital, it's generally an internal review board correct? How often are those internal reviews referred to a DA for prosecution? Or have legal oversight like LEOs have when they have to use lethal force?

People want to complain about the cops investigating themselves. But I really don't ever hear of too many doctors or other medical professionals going on trial for a patient that's lost because of their mistake.

Cdywolfe said:
That 100,00+ number that's being thrown around is actually proof that they're generally held accountable even when they didn't do anything wrong.
Click to expand...

And again, what "accountability" is that? Loss of license? Loss of position? Criminal trial?

Because I can tell you right now if there's even a hint of impropriety going on during a lethal force usage by a LEO, it's going to go to a grand jury. When's the last time a doctor went before a grand jury when they lost a patient due to their actions?

Cdywolfe said:
Hospitals are generally going to just settle because it's cheaper and way less publicity than a trial.
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And that's different than a city doing it when a family brings a suit against them after a LEO shooting?

Let's just call that what it is, it's paying them off. And that's from hospitals to metro/state/federal. Don't try to sugar coat it.

Cdywolfe said:
My guess in each and everyone of those instances that's looked at by most as an admission of guilt and that death is deemed as caused by medical malpractice.
Click to expand...

And again, when was the last time a criminal trial was brought forward for medical malpractice? How often does a DA look in on those internal reviews? Or are they allowed to at all?

I wouldn't get too lost in your trip down superior morality lane by thinking the medical profession is some sort of perfect world. They are just as guilty, even more so if even a tenth of the medical malpractice death numbers are accurate. And while I think that 100K might be a big number, I'd have to say it's probably going to be far better odds of getting killed in a hospital than by a cop.
 
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#4,395
#4,395
Cdywolfe said:
Once again… Unless I overlooked one everyone of those individuals were punished for what they did. Also, it appears as though most of them were 30+ years ago or in other countries. I can only speak for the facility that I work at, but I feel like it would be really hard for me to get away with that without questions being asked.
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Lots of nurses like to pilfer the drug drawer....no?
 
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#4,398
#4,398
Carl Pickens said:
Keep in mind this was over thirty years ago.... The hour may be inaccurate, but what I do remember for certain was that it was a spinal injection..... The numbness and paralysis began shortly afterwards.... Once it was determined that the wrong drug had been administered someone from the hospital staff called another hospital up north somewhere that had experienced the same thing to ask what options were available..... The reply was give him whatever you need to to make him comfortable because death is inevitable.... Paraphrase that however you like..... Question it.... Doubt it..... But the dude died and pretty quickly. I was 15 at the time and not really into the scientific details..... All I cared about was the fact that my friend died.
Click to expand...

Fair enough...
 
#4,399
#4,399
GV....

You present many good points/questions. Many of which I have no good rebuttal/answer. I'm man enough to admit that my comparison may not have been a good one. My profession isn't a squeaky clean as we all like to think.

I feel like there are a few major differences that we can discuss further if you wish but I'm really tired at the moment and am going to sleep.

Regardless... I like to feel like I'm capable of admitting when im wrong and this appears to be one of those cases.
 
#4,400
#4,400
Cdywolfe said:
GV....

You present many good points/questions. Many of which I have no good rebuttal/answer. I'm man enough to admit that my comparison may not have been a good one. My profession isn't a squeaky clean as we all like to think.

I feel like there are a few major differences that we can discuss further if you wish but I'm really tired at the moment and am going to sleep.

Regardless... I like to feel like I'm capable of admitting when im wrong and this appears to be one of those cases.
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I'd be more than happy to discuss them with you in a rational fashion.

And thanks for owning up. We all get a bit passionate from time to time.
 
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