Ukraine Protests

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#8,376
#8,376
Rasputin_Vol said:
Again, your are painting a picture of a large scale Russian invasion with no proof. How do you know just how many of the fighters in E. Ukraine are Russian vs any other country or region?

You all challenge us with proof and evidence and we deliver. You all make claims with no evidence and we are supposed to just accept it. You guys operate with no burden of proof to support the claims you are trying to make.

I'm not saying that there isn't Russian involvement, but we are going to disagree about the scale and magnitude of this assistance until you proved proof. Until then, the ugly perception right now is that the Ukrainian Army (with the help of the US and other European soldiers) got their heads handed to them by a coalition of Eastern Ukrainian, Russian, and other ex-pat fighters.
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I'm going out on a limb here but asking you to use your brain and push the logic button here. When this little conflict began, you had these guys in the East with the same access to the same equipment the government forces had. And it was at a much smaller scale since the government forces had the equipment under their control. There were cases of these groups seizing small stockpiles. By sheer logic, you had smaller forces with less equipment. From last Spring until mid-summer these groups were being routed. Toward mid to late summer look at the lines. These guys were all but done for. They were low on supplies and almost wiped out. Minsk I discussions came about. Suddenly the almost non-existent forces were massively restocked in numbers and equipment. Not only was equipment appearing from nowhere some of it was higher tech than was standard in the Ukrainian army.

Again, asking a lot I know but please tell me where an all but defeated army with nothing left suddenly gets massive amounts of trucks, artillery pieces, Grads and rockets to go with them, rifles and ammo, helmets, body armor, Toskas, Smerchs, etc. One small corner of Ukraine and an exhausted in supplies group has far more equipment than the Ukrainian army that had control of the bases and equipment. The sheer amount of equipment already displayed in videos both running and destroyed is more than what Ukraine had before the conflict started. The math does not add up.

Look at these videos. Again, using your deductive reasoning skills please tell me how these Russian forces could acquire all of this when they had all but nothing last summer.

1)Where did it come from? Russia
2)How can Russian government not be involved when all of this equipment shows up when there was none before?

Watch all of these. These are all well after last summer when the DNR and LNR were all but spent. Tell me where all of this came from. Simple question for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hxN0pLigYk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVBW4wWw9Io

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTjn4beiqYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hLgcggCFlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxf0GqB70M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq1iBchjVFk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKB3OutcPFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdMIK6shALU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wez6z9UnA
 
#8,377
#8,377
Rasputin_Vol said:
2 questions:

1. What is the difference in the T-72B3 and the T-72M? You seem to imply that there is an obvious difference in the two models that this guy Graham Phillips didn't recognize.

2. From everything I'm seeing so far, the T-72 series of tanks were used by all of the Warsaw pact nations, including Ukraine. Why couldn't these be tanks left in Ukraine from that era... or recently? I say "recently" because I wondering if it is possible that Yanukovich could have gotten some of these tanks from Russia during his presidency within the last few years.
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The B3 is a modernized variant of the T-72. The B3 has only started being delivered to Russian Guards units in 2013 and hasn't been exported to any country as of yet. It is the mainstay of Russian armored forces so it's eye opening when they are photographed in Ukraine.
 
#8,378
#8,378
Rasputin_Vol said:
2 questions:

1. What is the difference in the T-72B3 and the T-72M? You seem to imply that there is an obvious difference in the two models that this guy Graham Phillips didn't recognize.

2. From everything I'm seeing so far, the T-72 series of tanks were used by all of the Warsaw pact nations, including Ukraine. Why couldn't these be tanks left in Ukraine from that era... or recently? I say "recently" because I wondering if it is possible that Yanukovich could have gotten some of these tanks from Russia during his presidency within the last few years.
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1)Tech and weapons available on board, reactive armor, shape of distinguishable features such as barrel, plating, turret, etc. You can look at the features on these and distinguish them as being B3. No question. Graham is an idiot. He only parrots what he is told. He is no military expert by any stretch of the imagination. He publishes what he is given with no regards for fact...but yet calls himself a legit and credible journalist.

2)The T-72 base model is a Warsaw Pact tank. Since then it has many upgrades and variations. You can Google the upgrades since the first version. There are dozens. Each version has different tech. Each upgrade addresses field needs, updated technology, addresses weaknesses and vulnerabilities from opposing forces upgrades, etc. Older versions of the T-72's are made by a few of the former Soviet republics. The T-72B3 is the latest version of the series ONLY made in Russia. This was rolled out about 4 years ago. And only recently produced in unit strength due to cost. This is a version Russia does NOT export. Not something just found in random wars. The only way this top tech gets off base is by permission. To get from base to Ukraine takes the flatbed trailers seen on some of these videos. A tank just does not drive completely from some base in Russia to the streets of Debaltseve. A top of the line Russian tank does not just fall into the hands of some miner separatists in Ukraine either.

In this video below you will see an unexploded Tornado S warhead in the playground. Again, Tornado S is Russia only. But yet it has a specific warhead and one unexploded is in a Ukrainian playground. How does this get there? The tech is video'd and the tech is easily ID'd. I'd love to entertain theories as to how this gets there without some sort of government approval. If Putin did not approve this leaving Russian bases then we have rogue generals or officers "smuggling" heavy weapons across Russia, over an international border, and giving it to peasant warriors with no training (or the actual operators are coming and fighting there).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuVYtQ5UP0
 
#8,379
#8,379
CSpindizzy said:
Watch all of these. These are all well after last summer when the DNR and LNR were all but spent. Tell me where all of this came from. Simple question for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hxN0pLigYk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVBW4wWw9Io

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTjn4beiqYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hLgcggCFlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxf0GqB70M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq1iBchjVFk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKB3OutcPFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdMIK6shALU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wez6z9UnA
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Well, that first video doesn't appear to be showing the same tanks that were shown in the Graham Phillips video you posted. These tanks appear to be older or different models than the T-72B3.

Outside of that, I only saw one or two other videos that showed tanks and they also didn't appear to be the T-72B3, meaning that these were probably left over from the Ukrainian army and never crossed the border. Everything else on the videos was fuel trucks and grads that are just as common in the Ukrainian army as they are in the Russian army. But let us suppose that all of this did cross over from Russia... that means that the OSCE has done a sh**y job of observing the border and reporting on it... I mean really. If these convoys really did originate in Russia, then how did this slip past the OSCE, or hell, how did the US satellites and US intelligence not pick this up? It would have been very, very easy to silence the critics if they could have shown this at a border crossing. But instead, we get the twitter and instagram b&w photos from 1970. Which just indicates to me that most of this equipment originated in Eastern Ukraine with the army there. The rebels got their hands on the equipment and probably have been re-supplied with munitions along the way from Russia... I can't say that I doubt that. But still, there is no way you can sneak that across the border and most of this equipment was common to most other Warsaw Pact countries.
 
#8,380
#8,380
Rasputin_Vol said:
Well, that first video doesn't appear to be showing the same tanks that were shown in the Graham Phillips video you posted. These tanks appear to be older or different models than the T-72B3.

Outside of that, I only saw one or two other videos that showed tanks and they also didn't appear to be the T-72B3, meaning that these were probably left over from the Ukrainian army and never crossed the border. Everything else on the videos was fuel trucks and grads that are just as common in the Ukrainian army as they are in the Russian army. But let us suppose that all of this did cross over from Russia... that means that the OSCE has done a sh**y job of observing the border and reporting on it... I mean really. If these convoys really did originate in Russia, then how did this slip past the OSCE, or hell, how did the US satellites and US intelligence not pick this up? It would have been very, very easy to silence the critics if they could have shown this at a border crossing. But instead, we get the twitter and instagram b&w photos from 1970. Which just indicates to me that most of this equipment originated in Eastern Ukraine with the army there. The rebels got their hands on the equipment and probably have been re-supplied with munitions along the way from Russia... I can't say that I doubt that. But still, there is no way you can sneak that across the border and most of this equipment was common to most other Warsaw Pact countries.
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It really would help if you stuck with the point I was making in the post. Since this post had nothing to do specifically with the T-72B3, not sure why that came up.

As previously stated by several people and backed up with posts from the OSCE themselves you seem to ignore the fact that the OSCE has ONLY been allowed two checkpoints on the entire border of this region. It's a little difficult when you sign off on border monitoring but only allow the monitors two roads on quite a long border. Fault your side for not abiding by what they sign. Not sure why you keep missing that point. You assume that US intel has not picked this up. Just because they have not publicly photo dumped it does not mean they have not seen it. Until you can explain this popping up out of the ground there is only one location it comes from.

I really am not sure you can grasp logic. Your "separatists" were spent last summer. They hardly had any territory and they were begging Russia for equipment. Now they have endless convoys. Tell me how in a small piece of land with no bases can all of the equipment in those videos magically appear? You can't because this did not magically appear. You still cannot explain something from nothing. You still cannot explain top tech in the region. Even with all of these videos you keep going on with logical fallacies about other Warsaw Pact nations. It's Ukraine and Russia here if you even know what a map is. It's limited equipment based on previous treaties. It is a small group of people scraping together some equipment last year and running all but out last summer but suddenly coming into the motherlode. Warsaw Pact has nothing to do with a limited pool to begin with and running out of it after that but suddenly mass producing it at a substantial rate not even the rest of Ukraine can muster. You truly don't get it. So keep on with the stupid photo comments. Keep on with Warsaw Pact. At the end of the discussion you still cannot explain how these Russians who are coming over and fighting this war somehow discovered hidden supplies exceeding what Ukraine had to begin with AND tech that Ukraine never even had...nor anyone outside of Russia. As for B&W photos, you got a whole group of videos. You've got color videos from your own troll reporter. So seriously. Stop repeating the already discounted garbage. I give you what you ask for and you still rant on about stuff not related or disproven. A whole list of videos with evidence of massive amounts of equipment and you still deny and deflect. Wow.
 
#8,381
#8,381
#8,384
#8,384
#8,387
#8,387
CSpindizzy said:
Again, repeated ad nauseam....these are the two border crossings the OSCE has. Imagine a few people monitoring these two crossings and then look at the map and see all the other possible crossing sites. Imagine the US border with two roads having Border Patrol and then saying these two posts know everything going on everywhere else....

Reports from the Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk | OSCE
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he really has completely discarded all of the OSCE reports we have posted. and even with them limited they have stated several times they have seen military convoys cross the border, as well as other 'unmarked' convoys crossing at non checkpoints. There have been several reports of military vehicles, not tanks, with Russian tags also ignored.
 
#8,388
#8,388
B-NkcSlIUAAnrpl.png
 
#8,389
#8,389
Pacer92 said:
More Russophobia...

http://rt.com/uk/233687-russia-threat-baltic-states/
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Russophobia.....odd when mysterious pro-Russian groups suddenly pop up stirring up trouble in the Baltics. Odd when Russian nationalist and fascist groups have recently become very active. Odd when Russia has kidnapped an Estonian intel agent by crossing the border into Estonia. Odd when Russian naval ships are running right up the territorial waters intimidating fishermen. Odd when bombers are flying right along the airspace corridors on the borders as well.

Nothing to see here. Nothing to fear. Move along.
 
#8,392
#8,392
CSpindizzy said:
Russophobia.....odd when mysterious pro-Russian groups suddenly pop up stirring up trouble in the Baltics. Odd when Russian nationalist and fascist groups have recently become very active. Odd when Russia has kidnapped an Estonian intel agent by crossing the border into Estonia. Odd when Russian naval ships are running right up the territorial waters intimidating fishermen. Odd when bombers are flying right along the airspace corridors on the borders as well.

Nothing to see here. Nothing to fear. Move along.
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And it's odd that American "agents" show up right before the over throw of Yanukovich. It's odd that the US had plans of placing their guy before things got out of control. It's odd the US and NATO started showing muscle in the Black Sea. It's odd that a US led NATO start beefing up militarily in the baltics and playing war games on Russia's border. It's odd that the US so desperately wants to supply weapons to Ukraine when nobody else of significance does.

It's odd you keep denying all of this while spewing your so called "facts" of Russian aggression.
 
#8,393
#8,393
Pacer92 said:
And it's odd that American "agents" show up right before the over throw of Yanukovich. It's odd that the US had plans of placing their guy before things got out of control. It's odd the US and NATO started showing muscle in the Black Sea. It's odd that a US led NATO start beefing up militarily in the baltics and playing war games on Russia's border. It's odd that the US so desperately wants to supply weapons to Ukraine when nobody else of significance does.

It's odd you keep denying all of this while spewing your so called "facts" of Russian aggression.
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You still have yet to prove this massive build up of forces by NATO and the US.
 
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