Ukraine Protests

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#8,129
#8,129
From 00:00-08:00hrs on 15 February there were 15 violations, all in Debaltseve or in Chornukhyne (Luhansk region, 8km east of Debaltseve, area of heavy fighting).
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while not a violation:

The head of the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine in Kharkiv told the SMM that on a daily basis, on average about 20-30 people (all men, aged from 16-60 years old) were being prevented from entering Ukraine from the Russian Federation as they are deemed to be a security risk.
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Latest from OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine based on information received as of 18:00 (Kyiv time), 15 February 2015 | OSCE
 
#8,131
#8,131
If it's not a satellite photo of Putin himself, standing next to the Hero's Gate in Kiev and waving up at the satellite, then Ras doesn't care.
 
#8,133
#8,133
Obsessed said:
Siap

Russian official: We could help Iran attack Saudi Arabia if US arms Ukraine - Business Insider
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I had heard about this a few days ago. That would be checkmate for the petrodollar. You already have an (allegedly) senile leader in poor health that just took over in Saudi Arabia right now. Not to mention other brothers and half brothers that are in the background thinking they are the next heir to the throne. It wouldn't even take a Russian intervention with Iran to topple this house of cards. The Saudi princes could have a squabble and turn this entire world upside down.

It is far time for the US to really step back and think about their next move. I've said before (and was laughed at) that we have people in control of this country that believe that we could win a first strike nuclear war. If the US even thinks about sending weapons into Ukraine at this point, that would be confirmation in my mind that we have psychopaths running this country and they are willing to gamble with OUR lives to maintain a system that is flawed and that has to end.
 
#8,134
#8,134
Rasputin_Vol said:
I had heard about this a few days ago. That would be checkmate for the petrodollar. You already have an (allegedly) senile leader in poor health that just took over in Saudi Arabia right now. Not to mention other brothers and half brothers that are in the background thinking they are the next heir to the throne. It wouldn't even take a Russian intervention with Iran to topple this house of cards. The Saudi princes could have a squabble and turn this entire world upside down.

It is far time for the US to really step back and think about their next move. I've said before (and was laughed at) that we have people in control of this country that believe that we could win a first strike nuclear war. If the US even thinks about sending weapons into Ukraine at this point, that would be confirmation in my mind that we have psychopaths running this country and they are willing to gamble with OUR lives to maintain a system that is flawed and that has to end.
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how do you make the leap from arming Ukrainians to fight against Putin's aggression to nuclear war?
 
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#8,136
#8,136
Rasputin_Vol said:
I had heard about this a few days ago. That would be checkmate for the petrodollar. You already have an (allegedly) senile leader in poor health that just took over in Saudi Arabia right now. Not to mention other brothers and half brothers that are in the background thinking they are the next heir to the throne. It wouldn't even take a Russian intervention with Iran to topple this house of cards. The Saudi princes could have a squabble and turn this entire world upside down.

It is far time for the US to really step back and think about their next move. I've said before (and was laughed at) that we have people in control of this country that believe that we could win a first strike nuclear war. If the US even thinks about sending weapons into Ukraine at this point, that would be confirmation in my mind that we have psychopaths running this country and they are willing to gamble with OUR lives to maintain a system that is flawed and that has to end.
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I'm not as informed as the rest of you, but if the U.S. does send weapons to the Ukraine, I think the ball would be in Russia's court on whether or not WWIII kicked off.
 
#8,137
#8,137
MG1968 said:
how do you make the leap from arming Ukrainians to fight against Putin's aggression to nuclear war?
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He found some talking paper that was 50 years old as a minimum that claimed a first strike in a nuclear war was the only way of winning.

Written well before Soviet (and later Russian) ICBMs and SLBMs were accurate enough to be an effective counterforce option.
 
#8,138
#8,138
Grand Vol said:
He found some talking paper that was 50 years old as a minimum that claimed a first strike in a nuclear war was the only way of winning.

Written well before Soviet (and later Russian) ICBMs and SLBMs were accurate enough to be an effective counterforce option.
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Dr. Paul Craig Roberts spoke about this a few months ago. These conversations and beliefs are still held today in some circles.
 
#8,140
#8,140
Obsessed said:
I'm not as informed as the rest of you, but if the U.S. does send weapons to the Ukraine, I think the ball would be in Russia's court on whether or not WWIII kicked off.
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WWIII didn't start when the Soviets supported the Vietnamese against us and when we supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets and it won't start if we give arms to the Ukrainians. The United States and Russia both know how to fight proxy wars and when to let off.
 
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#8,141
#8,141
Grand Vol said:
And you still can't find anything more recent than 50 years old that supports that YouTube nonsense...
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Like I said a few posts ago, if the US calls this bluff with Russia and arms the Ukrainians, then you will know that you have people in Washington that are willing to gamble our lives away. This isn't funny, Grand. Millions of lives are at risk.
 
#8,142
#8,142
Burhead said:
WWIII didn't start when the Soviets supported the Vietnamese against us and when we supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets and it won't start if we give arms to the Ukrainians. The United States and Russia both know how to fight proxy wars and when to let off.
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I didn't say it would start. I said it would be in Russia's court.
 
#8,143
#8,143
Burhead said:
WWIII didn't start when the Soviets supported the Vietnamese against us and when we supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets and it won't start if we give arms to the Ukrainians. The United States and Russia both know how to fight proxy wars and when to let off.
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Why push the envelope? Why even tempt the situation by bringing us to the brink of world war? This is still far enough along where cooler heads (if there are any) could win the day. We don't need to play this game of nuclear chicken to see who is going to flinch first. This is ridiculous.
 
#8,144
#8,144
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why push the envelope? Why even tempt the situation by bringing us to the brink of world war? This is still far enough along where cooler heads (if there are any) could win the day. We don't need to play this game of nuclear chicken to see who is going to flinch first. This is ridiculous.
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Right now, it's just you and a few crackpots from the 1950's blathering about first strike nuclear capabilities and their relationship to the current crisis in Ukraine.
 
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#8,145
#8,145
Grand Vol said:
And you still can't find anything more recent than 50 years old that supports that YouTube nonsense...
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There was an article written nearly 10 years ago about how the US had achieved nuclear first strike primacy, but it was not by US govt. figures and also stated that Russia (at least) should have the gap closed within a decade or two. Almost been a decade and with their new Bulavas, I would imagine that, provided any US politicians actually thought we had primacy and were sadistic enough to use it (as I imagine Ras probably thinks of us), then they know by now that that window has closed.
 
#8,146
#8,146
Rasputin_Vol said:
Like I said a few posts ago, if the US calls this bluff with Russia and arms the Ukrainians, then you will know that you have people in Washington that are willing to gamble our lives away. This isn't funny, Grand. Millions of lives are at risk.
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I think the fact you honestly believe anyone in the US Government thinks that a nuclear war is "winnable" is nothing short of hilarious.

The concept of "winning" a nuclear war went out in the early 60s when the Russians developed their own ICBM force that rivaled ours. And even though not as accurate, they made up for it in sheer numbers and would turn this nation and her allies into a nuclear wasteland. And we would do the same in turn with our, and our allies, nuclear triad.

You have to come up with something more than an obscure professor with a report from before you and I were born to convince me otherwise.

The only people than win in any nuclear exchange are the dead.
 
#8,147
#8,147
volprof said:
There was an article written nearly 10 years ago about how the US had achieved nuclear first strike primacy, but it was not by US govt. figures and also stated that Russia (at least) should have the gap closed within a decade or two. Almost been a decade and with their new Bulavas, I would imagine that, provided any US politicians actually thought we had primacy and were sadistic enough to use it (as I imagine Ras probably thinks of us), then they know by now that that window has closed.
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Got a link? I'd like to read it.
 
#8,148
#8,148
Burhead said:
WWIII didn't start when the Soviets supported the Vietnamese against us and when we supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets and it won't start if we give arms to the Ukrainians. The United States and Russia both know how to fight proxy wars and when to let off.
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While I think that just about everything you hear from the Russian side is blathering hot air, I also think Ukraine is a much different animal. Afghanistan bordered the USSR, but, then again, Afghanistan did not mean to Soviet Russia what Ukraine has and will continue to mean to Russia.

I just don't think we should arm then, although I also don't think Russia is dumb enough to start a war over our arming of them either. But things escalate, and you can never be completely sure how and to what end.
 
#8,149
#8,149
MG1968 said:
Right now, it's just you and a few crackpots from the 1950's blathering about first strike nuclear capabilities and their relationship to the current crisis in Ukraine.
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If the US sends weapons to Ukraine, Russia will respond. If they respond in the manner that they are saying (arming Iran), that could mean conventional weapons or nuclear weapons...

That is what I'm saying. Don't act like this is just some idea out of left field.

And lets suppose that Russia only offers conventional weapons to the Iranians. In turn, the US would be expected to reinforce the Saudis. And then Russia will respond with more... and so on as the stakes are raised incrementally higher.
 
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