ISIS Takes Control of Mosul

#676
#676
volinbham said:
Yep - hear the press conf today we keep insisting on Iraq (Baghdad) to "reform" their government to be more inclusive, blah, blah, blah.

Find some people willing to take on ISIS and arm them up. Yeah I know that's how we get in trouble but Iraq (and oil supplies) are about to be in a world of hurt.

On a side note, we justified Libya as preventing the massacre of people not aligned with Col. Quackers. Well, ISIS is killing all over the place and if you are Christian in Iraq you better high tail it out of there but for some reason this killing doesn't merit a response. Any wonder no one knows what our FP is?
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Same thing we're doing with Russia and the "costs" of their aggression. It seems our foreign policy is to just watch the world burn while saying that we care.
 
#677
#677
I am torn.

Part of me says its obvious that these guys are a threat to us in the not too distant future and should be dealt with now, before they solidify their power and control.

Another part of me has heard that first argument about a half a dozen times in the last 20 years, we never seem to actually extinguish the threat, and in fact we always seem to cause more problems and greater resentment towards us than was already there.
 
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#678
#678
lawgator1 said:
I am torn.

Part of me says its obvious that these guys are a threat to us in the not too distant future and should be dealt with now, before they solidify their power and control.

Another part of me has heard that first argument about a half a dozen times in the last 20 years, we never seem to actually extinguish the threat, and in fact we always seem to cause more problems and greater resentment towards us than was already there.
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So the question comes down to:

Would you rather have them hate us and do nothing?

Or would you rather have them hate us because we killed their people and broke their toys?

Because no matter what, they are going to hate us. And you are correct that eventually they will likely become a threat.
 
#679
#679
Grand Vol said:
So the question comes down to:

Would you rather have them hate us and do nothing?

Or would you rather have them hate us because we killed their people and broke their toys?

Because no matter what, they are going to hate us. And you are correct that eventually they will likely become a threat.
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I don't think it is that simple.

If we are not present in their country, and if we are not engaged in activities that interfere with their interests in their little fiefdom, then presumably there is little to no incentive for them to come all the way over here to attack us. But, when we bomb them, or try to manipulate their governments for our own selfish purposes, we do in fact give them reason to attack us.

Can anyone cite to an example of an Arab country or Islamic group attacking or terrorizing us prior to the oil era? Prior to the time when we started to try to control Iran or Saudia Arabia or Iraq, for our oil industry and interests?

I'm not saying they are justified in blowing up buildings over it. What I am saying is that I see no way on Earth that we can possibly prevent there from being extremists there, and we should be out of the business of trying to remake those countries in our image.

Crikes, I might have to vote for Rand Paul.
 
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#680
#680
lawgator1 said:
I don't think it is that simple.
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I'm a simple kinda guy.

lawgator1 said:
If we are not present in their country, and if we are not engaged in activities that interfere with their interests in their little fiefdom, then presumably there is little to no incentive for them to come all the way over here to attack us. But, when we bomb them, or try to manipulate their governments for our own selfish purposes, we do in fact give them reason to attack us.
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And we gave Al Qaeda a reason to attack us? From time to time I think movie quotes sum up things better than anything. And the Dark Knight quote sums it up when Alfred says "some men just want to watch the world burn." There will always be enemies of the US whether we are there or are not and they will find an excuse to attack us. And that's why I can't wrap my head around the non-interventionist/isolationist train of thought. It doesn't matter if we brought everyone home, the chances of us NOT being attacked don't go down because we are still America and worthy of being "put in their place." It will still happen.

lawgator1 said:
Can anyone cite to an example of an Arab country or Islamic group attacking or terrorizing us prior to the oil era? Prior to the time when we started to try to control Iran or Saudia Arabia or Iraq, for our oil industry and interests?
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Moro Rebels? Barbary Pirates? Need me to go on?

lawgator1 said:
I'm not saying they are justified in blowing up buildings over it. What I am saying is that I see no way on Earth that we can possibly prevent there from being extremists there, and we should be out of the business of trying to remake those countries in our image.
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Don't disagree

lawgator1 said:
Crikes, I might have to vote for Rand Paul.
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As likely as I would be to vote for Hillary I'd bet...
 
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#681
#681
Will anyone stop ISIS? - CNN.com

"I don't see any attention from the rest of the world," a member of the Yazidi minority in Iraq told the New Yorker. "In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, 'Save Gaza, save Gaza.'"

In Syria, the group hoisted some of its victims severed heads on poles. One of the latest videos of the savagery shows a Christian man forced to his knees, surrounded by masked militants, identified in the video as members of ISIS. They force the man at gunpoint to "convert" to Islam. Then, the group beheads him.
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Yes, can we still all expend our energy griping about how brutal Israel is being while ignoring this?

If you're following the news about ISIS, which now calls itself the Islamic State, you might think you've mistakenly clicked on a historical story about barbarians from millennia ago.

In a matter of months, the group seized territory in both Iraq and Syria and declared an Islamic caliphate, celebrating its own shocking slaughter along the way.
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#684
#684
Burhead said:
Same thing we're doing with Russia and the "costs" of their aggression. It seems our foreign policy is to just watch the world burn while saying that we care.
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Worse, we intentionally tell the world we will wait until something else happens then re-evaluate our position.

It is always reactionary. There is no strategy whatsoever. There is no vision whatsoever.
 
#686
#686
volinbham said:
Worse, we intentionally tell the world we will wait until something else happens then re-evaluate our position.

It is always reactionary. There is no strategy whatsoever. There is no vision whatsoever.
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What's even worse is we will lose all credibility in the ME for at least a decade if not more by doing nothing. And the nations there, other than Israel, will turn to the Russians or the Chinese for help and if/when we sit on our ass and do nothing. And the Chinese won't hesitate for a second to move troops in to "assist."

This could also be the time for Iran to make a power play and remove all US influence in Iraq by backing the government there. The Kurds are SOL since Iran hates them. I know many on here reject the notion that we should be involved, but if we sit on our duffs and do nothing, we will lose more than we know right now.
 
#687
#687
Grand Vol said:
What's even worse is we will lose all credibility in the ME for at least a decade if not more by doing nothing. And the nations there, other than Israel, will turn to the Russians or the Chinese for help and if/when we sit on our ass and do nothing. And the Chinese won't hesitate for a second to move troops in to "assist."

This could also be the time for Iran to make a power play and remove all US influence in Iraq by backing the government there. The Kurds are SOL since Iran hates them. I know many on here reject the notion that we should be involved, but if we sit on our duffs and do nothing, we will lose more than we know right now.
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My position is I don't support US combat troops in Iraq again but I'm not against recognizing Kurdish independence and selling/transferring modern weaponry to the Peshmerga and perhaps even sharing of intelligence but let them do the heavy lifting.
 
#688
#688
Burhead said:
My position is I don't support US combat troops in Iraq again but I'm not against recognizing Kurdish independence and selling/transferring modern weaponry to the Peshmerga and perhaps even sharing of intelligence but let them do the heavy lifting.
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I agree and I'd be in favor of droning/bombing ISIS where we can.
 
#689
#689
Burhead said:
My position is I don't support US combat troops in Iraq again but I'm not against recognizing Kurdish independence and selling/transferring modern weaponry to the Peshmerga and perhaps even sharing of intelligence but let them do the heavy lifting.
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volinbham said:
I agree and I'd be in favor of droning/bombing ISIS where we can.
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Both honestly. The Kurds don't have an air force (yet) and that could prove to be a huge tactical advantage.

I've said it before, they are one of the few groups in the ME that's supported us lately. And there is something to be said about friendship.
 
#691
#691
So what do we do? Do we get involved, losing American lives, spending billions (we don't have) in an action that will only postpone conflict until we leave again, and will only serve to piss somebody off while getting token thanks? Or do we sit on our hands, let the world try and resolve its own problems while we attempt (kinda) to fix our own problems, the economy, and become the 'bad guys' for not stepping into our usual role which also leads to the label of 'bad guys'.

Our FP in the last decades (since the collapse of the USSR, and even before that) has just dug us into deeper and deeper holes. We make ourselves weaker whichever of the two paths we take. In the first we waste our strength trying to maintain the status quo around the world for others, or we fix our stuff and lose any possible allies, of course we don't make any new enemies either.

catch 22, do you spend your time helping your family recover from a natural disaster or do you help your friends deal with their money problems? its an effed up situation and I don't think we have had a president in the last 40+ years that could actually deal with this, and make it better.
 
#692
#692
LouderVol said:
So what do we do? Do we get involved, losing American lives, spending billions (we don't have) in an action that will only postpone conflict until we leave again, and will only serve to piss somebody off while getting token thanks? Or do we sit on our hands, let the world try and resolve its own problems while we attempt (kinda) to fix our own problems, the economy, and become the 'bad guys' for not stepping into our usual role which also leads to the label of 'bad guys'.

Our FP in the last decades (since the collapse of the USSR, and even before that) has just dug us into deeper and deeper holes. We make ourselves weaker whichever of the two paths we take. In the first we waste our strength trying to maintain the status quo around the world for others, or we fix our stuff and lose any possible allies, of course we don't make any new enemies either.

catch 22, do you spend your time helping your family recover from a natural disaster or do you help your friends deal with their money problems? its an effed up situation and I don't think we have had a president in the last 40+ years that could actually deal with this, and make it better.
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The simplest course of action would be to do as I previously mentioned. Transfer military equipment to Kurdish forces and share critical intelligence and let them do the fighting themselves.
 
#693
#693
Burhead said:
The simplest course of action would be to do as I previously mentioned. Transfer military equipment to Kurdish forces and share critical intelligence and let them do the fighting themselves.
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But I also agree with VB about the air support. That kind of thing can tip the tide in their favor at low risk to ourselves.
 
#694
#694
I'd like to know too what we are doing regionally (diplomatically) to marshal an effort against ISIS. Honestly it just seems we are sitting back and saying "yep, that's pretty bad but the only options are do very little or full-scale invasion".
 
#695
#695
Drone ISIS off the face of the earth, divide Iraq into 3 nations and call it a day.
 
#696
#696
LouderVol said:
So what do we do? Do we get involved, losing American lives, spending billions (we don't have) in an action that will only postpone conflict until we leave again, and will only serve to piss somebody off while getting token thanks? Or do we sit on our hands, let the world try and resolve its own problems while we attempt (kinda) to fix our own problems, the economy, and become the 'bad guys' for not stepping into our usual role which also leads to the label of 'bad guys'.

Our FP in the last decades (since the collapse of the USSR, and even before that) has just dug us into deeper and deeper holes. We make ourselves weaker whichever of the two paths we take. In the first we waste our strength trying to maintain the status quo around the world for others, or we fix our stuff and lose any possible allies, of course we don't make any new enemies either.

catch 22, do you spend your time helping your family recover from a natural disaster or do you help your friends deal with their money problems? its an effed up situation and I don't think we have had a president in the last 40+ years that could actually deal with this, and make it better.
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I hear you but we can clearly do more both militarily and diplomatically without putting boots on the ground.

I don't think ISIS has a lot of friends and this is one time where we probably could work with other Arab ME countries and somewhere like Turkey to craft a larger, coherent strategy.
 
#697
#697
volinbham said:
I'd like to know too what we are doing regionally (diplomatically) to marshal an effort against ISIS. Honestly it just seems we are sitting back and saying "yep, that's pretty bad but the only options are do very little or full-scale invasion".
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I think you are giving far too much credit to the Administration for having those two options as a minimum.
 
#698
#698
Gramps said:
Drone ISIS off the face of the earth, divide Iraq into 3 nations and call it a day.
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That you Joe Biden :)

Joke aside, the only thing I'd change here is to let Iraq figure out how to divide rather than the West drawing the map again.
 
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