Witten a Lock for NFL HOF?

#76
#76
A ring will most likely get him in for sure. But right now, he is not a lock. The game has evolved into a more passer friendly league. Five years after Witten is gone, Gronk, Graham, and other tight ends will be on pace to eclipse what Witten has done. That's why the stats won't matter as much anymore. Like I said, a ring or consistent playoff success is what ultimately will get Witten into the HOF.

I would also like to say LOL is the poster earlier that suggested Jamal Lewis make the HOF.
 
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#77
#77
Despite the overall impressiveness of Witten’s statistical performance, one thing that undermines his receiving more recognition is, apparently, a surprising reluctance for Romo to go to him in the red zone. It may be that “mad bomber” Brayesque mentality, but consider the following stats:

This year, Romo has thrown 26 touchdown passes: 12 to Dez Bryant, 6 to Miles Austin, 3 to Kevin Ogletree and only 2 to Witten (despite 103 catches for 983 yds).

In 2011, Romo threw 31 touchdown passes: 11 to Laurent Robinson, 9 to Dez Bryant, 7 to Miles Austin, and 5 to Witten.

In 2010, Romo and Jon Kitna combined for 27 touchdown passes: 9 to Jason Witten, 7 to Miles Austin, 6 to Dez Bryant and 5 to Roy Williams.

In 2009, Romo threw 26 touchdown passes: 11 to Miles Austin, 7 to Roy Williams, 5 to Patrick Crayton, and 2 to Witten (despite 94 receptions for 1030 yds.).

In 2008, Romo threw for 26 touchdown passes: 10 to Terrell Owens, 4 each to Patrick Crayton, Martellus Bennett, and Jason Witten.

In 2007, Romo threw 36 touchdown passes: 15 to Terrell Owens, 7 each to Patrick Crayton and Jason Witten (96 catches for 1145 yards).

In these years, Romo (and Kitna) threw a total of 172 touchdown passes, of which 125 were to starting wide receivers but only 29 were to Witten. I didn’t go back any farther than 6 years because these data illustrate a very definite trend, one that indicates that Romo uses Witten like a safety blanket, one that he will feed again and again. When he wants a touchdown, however, he is overly reliant on his wide receivers. Unlike Brees, Brady or Rivers, who have used Graham, Gronkowski, and Gates, respectively, to great effectiveness, Romo seems to ignore his tight end in the red zone.
 
#78
#78
Volosaurus rex said:
Despite the overall impressiveness of Witten’s statistical performance, one thing that undermines his receiving more recognition is, apparently, a surprising reluctance for Romo to go to him in the red zone. It may be that “mad bomber” Brayesque mentality, but consider the following stats:

This year, Romo has thrown 26 touchdown passes: 12 to Dez Bryant, 6 to Miles Austin, 3 to Kevin Ogletree and only 2 to Witten (despite 103 catches for 983 yds).

In 2011, Romo threw 31 touchdown passes: 11 to Laurent Robinson, 9 to Dez Bryant, 7 to Miles Austin, and 5 to Witten.

In 2010, Romo and Jon Kitna combined for 27 touchdown passes: 9 to Jason Witten, 7 to Miles Austin, 6 to Dez Bryant and 5 to Roy Williams.

In 2009, Romo threw 26 touchdown passes: 11 to Miles Austin, 7 to Roy Williams, 5 to Patrick Crayton, and 2 to Witten (despite 94 receptions for 1030 yds.).

In 2008, Romo threw for 26 touchdown passes: 10 to Terrell Owens, 4 each to Patrick Crayton, Martellus Bennett, and Jason Witten.

In 2007, Romo threw 36 touchdown passes: 15 to Terrell Owens, 7 each to Patrick Crayton and Jason Witten (96 catches for 1145 yards).

In these years, Romo (and Kitna) threw a total of 172 touchdown passes, of which 125 were to starting wide receivers but only 29 were to Witten. I didn’t go back any farther than 6 years because these data illustrate a very definite trend, one that indicates that Romo uses Witten like a safety blanket, one that he will feed again and again. When he wants a touchdown, however, he is overly reliant on his wide receivers. Unlike Brees, Brady or Rivers, who have used Graham, Gronkowski, and Gates, respectively, to great effectiveness, Romo seems to ignore his tight end in the red zone.
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I agree with your post, but here is the rationale: the reason JW has not been the primary receiver in the red zone is because TO, Roy Williams and Dez Bryant are huge physical receivers that have physical advantages over most corners in the red zone. By comparison Graham, Gates, and Gronk are the biggest most physical targets on their respective teams. As for overall TD production, I haven't researched, but as a Cowboy fan, I'd be willing to bet a huge percentage of Romos TD passes come from outside the 10 because they are a big play offense. It stands to reason this would diminish most TEs TD numbers. As for the thread argument, Witten is a lock. He is more appreciated in football circles than by the average NFL fan outside of Dallas.
 
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#79
#79
Yankee_Vol said:
Lulz
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What part of my post deserves a lulz? Bernard King played a lot of his career before Magic and Jordan. Michael Wilbon, who knows the NBA, once said on PTI that "there was a time in the NBA when if you needed a basket, King was the man." If the HOF really is about honoring the best players of each era, then Bernard King should be in.

Hall of Fame Snubs: Bernard King - Nepean Funk 

As for Helton, the fact that he has never been connected to PEDs will help him tremendously because so many of his contemporaries were accused. If somebody like Barry Larkin can get in, then Helton should be in.

Do some research before calling someone a clown, clown.
 
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#80
#80
#1DicksonVolFan said:
What part of my post deserves a lulz? Bernard King played a lot of his career before Magic and Jordan. Michael Wilbon, who knows the NBA, once said on PTI that "there was a time in the NBA when if you needed a basket, King was the man." If the HOF really is about honoring the best players of each era, then Bernard King should be in.

Hall of Fame Snubs: Bernard King - Nepean Funk*

As for Helton, the fact that he has never been connected to PEDs will help him tremendously because so many of his contemporaries were accused. If somebody like Barry Larkin can get in, then Helton should be in.

Do some research before calling someone a clown, clown.
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Where did I call you a clown?

I agree about King.

Helton's numbers are a little low for the hall and likely won't (and shouldn't) make it.

Witten will make it. Hands down.
 
#81
#81
#1DicksonVolFan said:
What part of my post deserves a lulz? Bernard King played a lot of his career before Magic and Jordan. Michael Wilbon, who knows the NBA, once said on PTI that "there was a time in the NBA when if you needed a basket, King was the man." If the HOF really is about honoring the best players of each era, then Bernard King should be in.

Hall of Fame Snubs: Bernard King - Nepean Funk*

As for Helton, the fact that he has never been connected to PEDs will help him tremendously because so many of his contemporaries were accused. If somebody like Barry Larkin can get in, then Helton should be in.

Do some research before calling someone a clown, clown.
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You get offended pretty easily, huh?
 
#82
#82
Yankee_Vol said:
Where did I call you a clown?

I agree about King.

Helton's numbers are a little low for the hall and likely won't (and shouldn't) make it.

Witten will make it. Hands down.
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And you would think Barry Larkin's numbers would be too low also. I realize he played ss and Todd played 1B, but the main point is that Larkin had relatively low offensive numbers but no connection to PEDs. We will see; if people like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro get in, Helton won't get in, but if they continue to be locked out, Helton will get in.
 
#83
#83
#1DicksonVolFan said:
And you would think Barry Larkin's numbers would be too low also. I realize he played ss and Todd played 1B, but the main point is that Larkin had relatively low offensive numbers but no connection to PEDs. We will see; if people like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro get in, Helton won't get in, but if they continue to be locked out, Helton will get in.
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Well, hopefully one of the greatest hitters and players that ever played someeeeehow sneaks in.
 
#84
#84
Yankee_Vol said:
Gronk and Graham have played 3 seasons. Give em about 5 more years and then we can talk


Gates can be argued. His career AV is 94 (210th overall since 1950) Less yards, but WAY more TDs in the same amount of years (10)
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Also Gronk has Brady. Graham has Brees. Witten has the choke artist Romo. Do Gronk and Graham even know how to block?
 
#85
#85
In regards to Helton getting into the hall of fame...


1B Todd Helton
15yrs .320avg .419obp 2,123gp 2,420h 1,295bb 354hr 1,345rbi 1,360r 37sb .996f%

1B Jeff Bagwell
15yrs .297avg .408obp 2,150gp 3,314h 1,401bb 449hr 1,529rbi 1,517r 202sb .993f%


Their careers were similar enough in my opinion. Overall, I'd give the nod to Bagwell as having the better career between the two. I suppose it depends which you view as more important, batting average or home runs. While .23 is a significant gap in batting average, so is 95 home runs and 165 stolen bases. Bagwell is better in every category except batting average, on base percentage, strikeouts and fielding percentage. Helton does have better accolades in every category except one but that one is the most highly regarded, MVP.

With all that being said, Bagwell has already been left out twice. I wouldn't doubt for a second that Bagwell took steroids but he's never been connected and I'm not sure suspicion is the reason he's been left out. I think being short of 500 home runs is what has hurt him the most and if that's the case, it doesn't bode well for Helton getting in. As someone previously mentioned, Helton played at Coors field and spent his career in Colorado. So while Bagwell may have had the advantage of steroids, voters aren't really sure and he also played in a pitchers park. Helton on the other hand, voters know the advantage of Coors field and the air turning singles and outs into doubles, triples and home runs.

I hope both get in and really think Bagwell should but the fact that he is struggling to get in despite what I believe to be the better career probably means Helton won't. I do think this will be Bagwell's year though. Biggio is also on the ballot for the first time and it would be fitting if they were inducted together. As for Biggio though, other than 3,000 hits, 400 stolen bases and being hit by a bunch of pitches, he's actually worse in every other category than both Bagwell and Helton. He even has more strikeouts and fewer walks than both. Heck, Helton's average(.320) is .23 higher than Bagwell's average(.297) and Bagwell's average is even .16 higher than Biggio's average(.281). The only real advantage Biggio has over them aside from playing a tougher position is that he also has more accolades with 7 all-star appearances, 5 silver sluggers and 4 golden gloves. I don't know that it should warrant covering up the fact that he has worse numbers in just about every category than Helton and Bagwell but I bet it will.

If Biggio does get in and I think he will, maybe Helton will get in after all. I just know that Bagwell's career was better(in my opinion anyways) and he's been left out twice. I'm leaning towards Helton not making it in.
 
#86
#86
huskyvol said:
Also Gronk has Brady. Graham has Brees. Witten has the choke artist Romo. Do Gronk and Graham even know how to block?
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To be fair, Brady and Brees also spread the ball around while Witten was pretty much the only person Romo threw to until Miles Austin came along. Also, I thought Romo and Witten roomed together or at least used to. It was mentioned that they spent a lot of that time talking to each other about what to do in certain situations and mapped out ways to get him the ball. I recall hearing about this because I think Roy Williams whined about how it's unfair that Romo is playing favoritism and would always look to go to Witten first. Witten has always been both Romo's #1 target and safety valve.

Just saying that having a better QB doesn't always equate to putting up more numbers as a receiver. In fact, it's usually the other way around because the the QB is good enough to find the open guy and spread it around. It's usually the crappy QB's who key in one guy. That would be Romo lol.
 
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#88
#88
#1DicksonVolFan said:
And you would think Barry Larkin's numbers would be too low also. I realize he played ss and Todd played 1B, but the main point is that Larkin had relatively low offensive numbers but no connection to PEDs. We will see; if people like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro get in, Helton won't get in, but if they continue to be locked out, Helton will get in.
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If Ron Santo got in Helton will get in - stats are similar
 
#89
#89
#1DicksonVolFan said:
And you would think Barry Larkin's numbers would be too low also. I realize he played ss and Todd played 1B, but the main point is that Larkin had relatively low offensive numbers but no connection to PEDs. We will see; if people like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro get in, Helton won't get in, but if they continue to be locked out, Helton will get in.
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There were a lot of rumors going around about Helton using steroids.
 
#91
#91
#1DicksonVolFan said:
And you would think Barry Larkin's numbers would be too low also. I realize he played ss and Todd played 1B, but the main point is that Larkin had relatively low offensive numbers but no connection to PEDs. We will see; if people like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro get in, Helton won't get in, but if they continue to be locked out, Helton will get in.
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Larkin was known for a little more than his hitting. SS is a totally different position. Helton was on pace and still may be able to get in like a Boggs. He was accused of using PED's by Dusty Baker at one point in his career as well. Helton is close but will probably be treated like Dale Murphy.
 
#93
#93
thebjd said:
Larkin was known for a little more than his hitting. SS is a totally different position. Helton was on pace and still may be able to get in like a Boggs. He was accused of using PED's by Dusty Baker at one point in his career as well. Helton is close but will probably be treated like Dale Murphy.
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Helton doesn't have enough hits or HRs. Helton was a great player in his time. A HOF player? No
 
#95
#95
I'm a lifelong Dallas Cowboys fan and as far as I'm concerned Witten is the only current player on their offense truly worthy of wearing the star. He is definitely a future HFer.
 
#98
#98
thebjd said:
Larkin was known for a little more than his hitting. SS is a totally different position. Helton was on pace and still may be able to get in like a Boggs. He was accused of using PED's by Dusty Baker at one point in his career as well. Helton is close but will probably be treated like Dale Murphy.
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Fact is nobody but the players themselves have any clue who was involved in ped use and how much they were involved. For us (or voters) to blindly guess and base hall of fame voting on those guesses isn't the way it should be.
 
#100
#100
005 said:
Fact is nobody but the players themselves have any clue who was involved in ped use and how much they were involved. For us (or voters) to blindly guess and base hall of fame voting on those guesses isn't the way it should be.
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Deleted.....off topic. Witten is a lock
 
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