The House voted 229-191 to pass H.R. 1422; EPA related

#51
#51
Mtntrout said:
That would be after the pollution has already caused harm in some way...

I am not under that impression. I gave no reason for you to believe I am under that impression. It does seem to give a common denominator as to what is acceptable that keeps states down river or downwind from getting crapped on. No need to be a jackass.
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Nothing to stop a state from suing a company located in another state to force remediation.
 
#52
#52
For the record it's not free market capitalism that fails. It's government intervention into the market that leads to failure. We do not have a free market here in America.
This is a rather interesting article written around the time of the gulf oil spill.

Mises Daily | Mises Institute

"The core economic issue concerning the environment is really about liability. In a world of private property, if you soil someone else's property, you bear the liability. But what about in a world in which government owns vast swaths, and the oceans are considered the commons of everyone? It becomes extremely difficult to assess damages to the environment at all.

"The liability for environmental damage should be 100% at least."
There is also a profound problem with federal government limits on liability. That is central planning gone mad. The liability for environmental damage should be 100% at least. Such a system would match a company's policies to the actual risk of doing damage. Lower limits would inspire companies to be less concerned about damage to others than they should be, in the same way that a company with a bailout guarantee faces a moral hazard to be less efficient than it would be in a free market."
 
#53
#53
Carl Pickens said:
I've seen sites where the ground was saturated with pesticides, herbicides, PCBs, cyanide, heavy metals.....you name it. back before the EPA companies would bury anything and everything in the ground and it didn't matter to them if it got into the ground water or ran off into streams and rivers.
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And society wonders why we have people dying left and right of cancer.....genetics they say.
 
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#56
#56
I would be in favor or environmental liabilty insurance. Insurance inspectors and auditors would be much better inspecting the facilities and practices of their policy holders compared to government inspectors. Insurance company has a vested interest in their client meeting minimum safety standards. Business has a vested interest in decreasing their premium by meeting safety standards. Insurance would pay a claim for environmental damage.
 
#57
#57
McDad said:
I would be in favor or environmental liabilty insurance. Insurance inspectors and auditors would be much better inspecting the facilities and practices of their policy holders compared to government inspectors. Insurance company has a vested interest in their client meeting minimum safety standards. Business has a vested interest in decreasing their premium by meeting safety standards. Insurance would pay a claim for environmental damage.
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Already a thing my friend.

Want to know how many audits 5mil in pollution liability with a 10mil umbrella buys you?
 
#58
#58
hog88 said:
Already a thing my friend.

Want to know how many audits 5mil in pollution liability with a 10mil umbrella buys you?
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I feel like im supposed to say yes. So.....yes.

eta: you said how many audits. I am interested in that.
 
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#59
#59
Carl Pickens said:
I've seen sites where the ground was saturated with pesticides, herbicides, PCBs, cyanide, heavy metals.....you name it. back before the EPA companies would bury anything and everything in the ground and it didn't matter to them if it got into the ground water or ran off into streams and rivers.
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HBO: Mann v. Ford: Home

This documentary basically covers one of the situations you described. Ford dumped a ton of lead paint and chemicals near this small town, now that town has ridiculously high cancer rates. Adults saying they remember as kids they'd go into the woods and eat the lead paint chips because it was brightly colored like candy.
 
#60
#60
McDad said:
I feel like im supposed to say yes. So.....yes.

eta: you said how many audits. I am interested in that.
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Eh, we're small fry and get at least one from an underwriter per year sometimes two and that's with a zero pollution claim record. State comes by every two to three years. We're building a used oil processing facility so I expect those numbers to jump.

Between state regulations, regulators/inspectors and insurance companies I think we can do without or at least drastically scale back the federal EPA.
 
#61
#61
hog88 said:
Eh, we're small fry and get at least one from an underwriter per year sometimes two and that's with a zero pollution claim record. State comes by every two to three years. We're building a used oil processing facility so I expect those numbers to jump.

Between state regulations, regulators/inspectors and insurance companies I think we can do without or at least drastically scale back the federal EPA.
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I agree.

Who is more thorough and knowledgeable the auditor or the state inspector?
 
#62
#62
hog88 said:
Nothing to stop a state from suing a company located in another state to force remediation.
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IIRC, TN sued a paper mill in NC several years ago because they were polluting the Little Pigeon River.
 
#63
#63
McDad said:
I agree.

Who is more thorough and knowledgeable the auditor or the state inspector?
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Insurance by far, I've got funny stories about state guys but just never know who's a lurking.
 
#64
#64
hog88 said:
Already a thing my friend.

Want to know how many audits 5mil in pollution liability with a 10mil umbrella buys you?
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That stuff isn't cheap either. There's only a limited number of companies willing to write it and then they go through reinsurance. Depending on the contract they have with the various reinsurers the premiums can increase drastically from one year to the next.
 
#65
#65
hog88 said:
Insurance by far, I've got funny stories about state guys but just never know who's a lurking.
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I've got a buddy that works for the state. I would imagine he's one of the better ones and he works in the air quality division.
 
#66
#66
Grand Vol said:
There is a place on Eglin AFB that is named "Agent Orange Pond."

It didn't get the name by mistake. And you don't eat the fish that come out of it.
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Lots of military facilities have this issue. There's a depot in west tn that has containment ponds and they've contaminated the ground water and moved off site.
 
#67
#67
Gramps said:
IIRC, TN sued a paper mill in NC several years ago because they were polluting the Little Pigeon River.
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I do remember that. But if I recall, it was more than "several" years ago. Likely 20 or so.
 
#68
#68
hog88 said:
Citizens of each state should be able to make their own decisions.
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Late to the thread but...

Pollution in one state makes its way to other states and effects citizens of states that had no say in the original pollution laws. That's why I'm in support of a federal level control.
 
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#71
#71
VOLatile said:
Late to the thread but...

Pollution in one state makes its way to other states and effects citizens of states that had no say in the original pollution laws. That's why I'm in support of a federal level control.
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There is a situation in Pulaski right now where a company is illegally disposing of waste across the line in AL. TN can't do anything to them because they are not breaking TN law and AL is ignoring it (envelopes). Think the feds would step in right? Wrong!

Reg 4s response, off the record of course, "not worth our time, no headlines or money in it".
 
#72
#72
hog88 said:
There is a situation in Pulaski right now where a company is illegally disposing of waste across the line in AL. TN can't do anything to them because they are not breaking TN law and AL is ignoring it (envelopes). Think the feds would step in right? Wrong!

Reg 4s response, off the record of course, "not worth our time, no headlines or money in it".
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If AL isn't doing anything about it then they must want the waste. It's AL's problem to solve.
 
#73
#73
azVolFan said:
If AL isn't doing anything about it then they must want the waste. It's AL's problem to solve.
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Yep. Just proof the Fed EPA is useless.

But boy if you have deep pockets and or they can make the news they're all over your azz.
 
#74
#74
The EPA HQ in DC is 1.87 million square feet. The DOJ HQ in DC is 1.2 million square feet. Seems off doesn't it?
 
#75
#75
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