The Brick Wall That Is Tennessee Baseball

[Mike Rapp]

Provide some figures.

I'd love the help.

I don't know that the schools publicly record actual attendance.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

2015 Attendance Average:
Arkansas basketball- 15,120
Arkansas Baseball- 8,290

I know basketball has a lot more, but when Arkansas is going good, they pack their place too.

Arkansas has one of, if not the best fanbase in the country, in terms of turning out and supporting their athletic teams.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

And...According to this...

NCAA | Finances | USA TODAY Sports (click the "conf" button)

...from just last year, our total revenue was $126,584,003...lol...5th in the conference. Ole Miss' total revenue was 87.6 Million. Roughly 40 million dollars less than UT but they spend over 1 million more on baseball.

So...keep telling me UT is committed to having a winning baseball team.

You've done a great job with this but I think you're making a broad conclusion based on numbers without analyzing the line items where those numbers are incurred. You said this is ALL expenses. That has to include gameday operations. Tell me how having 2 extra concession stands, hence more employees and cost of goods sold, affects the play on the field? These stadiums with capacities of 1.5-2x that of LNS will automatically spend more because every facet of stadium operation is increased.

 

[BruinVol]

You've done a great job with this but I think you're making a broad conclusion based on numbers without analyzing the line items where those numbers are incurred. You said this is ALL expenses. That has to include gameday operations. Tell me how having 2 extra concession stands, hence more employees and cost of goods sold, affects the play on the field? These stadiums with capacities of 1.5-2x that of LNS will automatically spend more because every facet of stadium operation is increased.

Spot on

66 is by far my favorite poster but there hasn't been one thing he has shared in this that makes me think budget $ is holding CDS back

 

[vol66]

You've done a great job with this but I think you're making a broad conclusion based on numbers without analyzing the line items where those numbers are incurred. You said this is ALL expenses. That has to include gameday operations. Tell me how having 2 extra concession stands, hence more employees and cost of goods sold, affects the play on the field? These stadiums with capacities of 1.5-2x that of LNS will automatically spend more because every facet of stadium operation is increased.

Did you click the link. Did you see how they defined, expenses and all expenses...you did that right?

Yeah, maybe and we settle more needless lawsuits then them. So it evens out.

Since Dave Hart has been here, what about the game day experience at Neyland, TBA or LNS Or Lee Stadium has gotten better for you?

A 9 win football team. Third Down For WHAT...EXACTLY!

You folks need to wake the F up...they didn't make 126 million dollars...WE GAVE IT TO THEM and they won't show the mid week games like EVERY other SEC school because it costs too much.

At the very least, they ain't doing' it right.

 

[vol66]

Spot on

66 is by far my favorite poster but there hasn't been one thing he has shared in this that makes me think budget $ is holding CDS back

That's because your mind is made up.

I tried.

 

[vol66]

I don't know that the schools publicly record actual attendance.

That's the point.

 

[vol66]

You've done a great job with this but I think you're making a broad conclusion based on numbers without analyzing the line items where those numbers are incurred. You said this is ALL expenses. That has to include gameday operations. Tell me how having 2 extra concession stands, hence more employees and cost of goods sold, affects the play on the field? These stadiums with capacities of 1.5-2x that of LNS will automatically spend more because every facet of stadium operation is increased.

Sorry for quoting you twice...

I didn't say All Expenses...the schools report what they are and the government website that reports it defines All Expenses as:

All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

While defining Operating expenses as:

The table shows two numbers-Operating Expenses and All Expenses. Operate expenses covers only “Game Day” expenses.

While I would love to find a baseball only line item cost/expense...baseball in most athletic department budgets gets lumped into a non-revenue portion of a pie chart. I'd give my right arm to know what we spend on baseball recruiting compared to everybody else, because we know most years we spend more than anybody else in recruiting for football.

I'b love to know how much we spend on travel for baseball compared to everybody else.

I'd love to know why a school that brings in top 10 revenue gets consistently out performed by schools that rank around top 40 like Clemson.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Did you click the link. Did you see how they defined, expenses and all expenses...you did that right?

Yeah, maybe and we settle more needless lawsuits then them. So it evens out.

Since Dave Hart has been here, what about the game day experience at Neyland, TBA or LNS Or Lee Stadium has gotten better for you?

A 9 win football team. Third Down For WHAT...EXACTLY!

You folks need to wake the F up...they didn't make 126 million dollars...WE GAVE IT TO THEM and they won't show the mid week games like EVERY other SEC school because it costs too much.

At the very least, they ain't doing' it right.

*All salary info is 2013, numbers have likely increased for guys like Sully and Childress

Arkansas spends roughly $700k more per year TOTAL on the program. Their operating expenses are $700k more than ours and Van Horn's salary is $200+k more than Serrano. So they're actually spending less than us somewhere else or their expenditures would be $1m more in total.

UF spends $500k more per year TOTAL on their program. Their operating expenses are $500k more than ours and O'Sullivan makes $25k more than Serrano. So they're actually spending less than us somewhere else or their expenditures would be more than $500k more than ours.

Mississippi State spends roughly $400k more per year TOTAL on their program. Their operating expenses are roughly $120k more than ours and Cohen makes roughly $200k more than Serrano. Therefore, the increased expenses are easily accounted for.

Ole Miss spends roughly $1.2m more per year TOTAL in their program. Their operating expenses are roughly $800k more than ours and Bianco makes roughly $75k more per year. So there's a little more being spent there in other facets to more than offset the difference. Is $200k enough to differentiate a CWS team from a bottom feeder? I don't know.

Texas AM spends roughly the same per year TOTAL on their program as us. Their operating expenses are $200k more than ours and Childress makes roughly $100k less than Serrano. So we're actually outspending them by $100k in other facets of the program to have equal expenditures total.

From what I can see, there's basically 3 big outliers here, where the increased expenses are more than simply salary and gameday operating expenses: LSU, Vandy and SCar. Other than that just about everybody can be explained by the other two categories. They all have "better" coaches than Serrano, justifying higher salaries and they all have substantially larger stadiums and/or crowds, justifying increased expenditures to host a function.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Sorry for quoting you twice...

I didn't say All Expenses...the schools report what they are and the government website that reports it defines All Expenses as:




While defining Operating expenses as:



While I would love to find a baseball only line item cost/expense...baseball in most athletic department budgets gets lumped into a non-revenue portion of a pie chart. I'd give my right arm to know what we spend on baseball recruiting compared to everybody else, because we know most years we spend more than anybody else in recruiting for football.

I'b love to know how much we spend on travel for baseball compared to everybody else.

I'd love to know why a school that brings in top 10 revenue gets consistently out performed by schools that rank around top 40 like Clemson.

Because Clemson brings in better players because they have a history of winning. You know you're in a regional at minimum when you go there. As a 10 yr old growing up in SoFL (20 yrs ago) I knew Clemson was a great baseball program. If you pay enough to keep a good coach around and he can build a program and play in a decent park, kids will come. Someone like Legget could point to 6 trips to Omaha in 15 years, UT can point to 4 in 80 years. A kid going to Clemson knows he's likely getting the opportunity to go to Omaha.

 

[vol66]

Because Clemson brings in better players because they have a history of winning. You know you're in a regional at minimum when you go there. As a 10 yr old growing up in SoFL (20 yrs ago) I knew Clemson was a great baseball program. If you pay enough to keep a good coach around and he can build a program and play in a decent park, kids will come. Someone like Legget could point to 6 trips to Omaha in 15 years, UT can point to 4 in 80 years. A kid going to Clemson knows he's likely getting the opportunity to go to Omaha.

I was talking all sports...better football, better baseball, at least a winning basketball team in a ridiculously more talented conference.

Louisville...

Look, if you want to believe, in light of everything that's going on that the administration at UT is under the right leadership and is doing things the right way...be my guest. When you think about our attendance in Football, Both basketballs and the fact they are making money hand over fist to the tune of 9th in the country and we have a baseball team that has 1 single winning season in the conference in the past 15 years...if that all adds up for you to job well done by the administration...more power to you.

Hell Missouri, is getting more bang for the buck.

 

[zachpack]

I was talking all sports...better football, better baseball, at least a winning basketball team in a ridiculously more talented conference.

Louisville...

Look, if you want to believe, in light of everything that's going on that the administration at UT is under the right leadership and is doing things the right way...be my guest. When you think about our attendance in Football, Both basketballs and the fact they are making money hand over fist to the tune of 9th in the country and we have a baseball team that has 1 single winning season in the conference in the past 15 years...if that all adds up for you to job well done by the administration...more power to you.

Hell Missouri, is getting more bang for the buck.

I totally agree. Besides the possibility that football and softball may be improving (not convinced yet!), the rest of the sports at UT are in decline. Both basketball teams, both track and field programs, volleyball, swimming, golf, baseball... you name it. When does the finger point to the AD? I think it is time to get rid of Hart and his staff and find someone that demands excellence here. It is a joke what has happened to this university.

 

[vol66]

I totally agree. Besides the possibility that football and softball may be improving (not convinced yet!), the rest of the sports at UT are in decline. Both basketball teams, both track and field programs, volleyball, swimming, golf, baseball... you name it. When does the finger point to the AD? I think it is time to get rid of Hart and his staff and find someone that demands excellence here. It is a joke what has happened to this university.

Actually Track is improving, of course, it was on life support. There are a lot of similarities between baseball and Track and Field now that I think about it. But Track was worse off...not by much though...

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

I was talking all sports...better football, better baseball, at least a winning basketball team in a ridiculously more talented conference.

Louisville...

Look, if you want to believe, in light of everything that's going on that the administration at UT is under the right leadership and is doing things the right way...be my guest. When you think about our attendance in Football, Both basketballs and the fact they are making money hand over fist to the tune of 9th in the country and we have a baseball team that has 1 single winning season in the conference in the past 15 years...if that all adds up for you to job well done by the administration...more power to you.

Hell Missouri, is getting more bang for the buck.

I've not said I'm happy with where everything is, nor is that a point that's really being debated here (at least I didn't think it was). Clemson plays in a ridiculously terrible football conference and we all know that. They needed a blown call to secure a win over UNC, a team that lost to 3-9 SCar and they barely beat SCar themselves. Clemson isn't going 13-0 in the SEC.

That aside, we all know we hired a horrible gameday coach and recruiter in Dooley and had a plethora of attrition by both players and coaches on his watch. Meanwhile, they've had a charismatic, hellacious and perhaps shady recruiter as a HC for 8 years. Continuity and a track record abounds.

UofL has said morals and public perception be damned, we want to win and as a result they've stuck with and hired great coaches in football and basketball. The move to the ACC has ensured that McDonnell is competing at the highest level of college baseball, rather than dominating in the basketball based Big East/AAC. Sidenote, as "recently" as the 2015 season, UofL baseball games are free. The only home game they charge for is UK and that's probably just to stick it to the UK fans who undoubtedly show up.

On to the making money hand over fist comment. The article is referencing revenue not profit. Yes, we're still turning a profit of $12m or so (as of 2014-15) and could probably afford to spend another $1m on baseball and not miss a beat. But our reserves got so low at one point that I see the need to put as much as possible back. I wouldn't site $126M in revenue as evidence we're a rich AD. The only number that matters is the bottom line and that's $12M.

 

[vol66]

I've not said I'm happy with where everything is, nor is that a point that's really being debated here (at least I didn't think it was). Clemson plays in a ridiculously terrible football conference and we all know that. They needed a blown call to secure a win over UNC, a team that lost to 3-9 SCar and they barely beat SCar themselves. Clemson isn't going 13-0 in the SEC.

That aside, we all know we hired a horrible gameday coach and recruiter in Dooley and had a plethora of attrition by both players and coaches on his watch. Meanwhile, they've had a charismatic, hellacious and perhaps shady recruiter as a HC for 8 years. Continuity and a track record abounds.

UofL has said morals and public perception be damned, we want to win and as a result they've stuck with and hired great coaches in football and basketball. The move to the ACC has ensured that McDonnell is competing at the highest level of college baseball, rather than dominating in the basketball based Big East/AAC. Sidenote, as "recently" as the 2015 season, UofL baseball games are free. The only home game they charge for is UK and that's probably just to stick it to the UK fans who undoubtedly show up.

On to the making money hand over fist comment. The article is referencing revenue not profit. Yes, we're still turning a profit of $12m or so (as of 2014-15) and could probably afford to spend another $1m on baseball and not miss a beat. But our reserves got so low at one point that I see the need to put as much as possible back. I wouldn't site $126M in revenue as evidence we're a rich AD. The only number that matters is the bottom line and that's $12M.

Here's the thing BG...I'll grant that money had been mismanaged somehow, someway by the former AD and that reserves were/are lower than what they ought to be...reserves.

You make a budget for sports based on the revenue you are projected to have, which barring some unforeseen calamity, is pretty easy to project in most areas. Maybe in the first year of the SECN, you might not be able to accurately project what that was gonna be...but the ball park area of revenue from the three major sports, revenue from March Madness, payouts from Bowls, TV, Merchandise, Tickets, donations...I can't think of a year when revenues dropped dramatically, there may be times where it remains stagnant, I remember around Dooley's first year it was around 100 million, he even remarked on it. I remember when we passed the 110 Million mark a couple of years ago and now we are over 120 Million.

My point is this. I realize football drives the machine. I realize that the fans of this program are loyal, passionate and we attend in big numbers all three of the major sports even when we are losing. We're building three new football fields and a brand new dorm.

But we can't come up with 50-75 grand to show the midweek games?

Last year would have been the year to fire Serrano. Expectations were high and the results were below par. Everybody new what was in store this season, some said if he could make a regional with this team he would deserve COY.

Maybe they wanted to give him one last shot because they like him.

Or...maybe they are just so cheap they didn't want to pay the buyout because the fans aren't going to lose any sleep over another losing year in baseball.

Maybe it was both.

I guess we should leave it at this: I don't believe UT is providing the baseball coach with all the resources he deserves or that they can muster. I don't believe they held up their end. I don't think they have a vision for the baseball program. Can I prove it? Can I pull out documents that provide evidence from every SEC school? No. I can't.

They aren't willing to take the petty loss to show the midweek games but other schools do, because they lack a vision about where baseball and softball are going. The popularity is going to grow, just like women's basketball and it's due to television.

They routinely make grammar school errors in their weekend release.

The post home game press conference looks like something channel 6 would do after a high school game compared to a Holbrook or Corbin post game, where they sit down, at a table, with working microphones and the school banner and take questions from reporters that you can actually hear.

When the baseball coach lucks into flying to Missouri because they couldn't secure two sleeper buses for the 10 hour drive...I mean...what the hell kind of planning is that? Travel ball teams are more organized than that.

Many have commented that the players we have don't look like SEC type players. Neither does the program.

We may never be THE program, but we shouldn't be the next to last worst job in the SEC.

There's 120 million reasons why we shouldn't...but here we sit.

 

[TNnative]

Here's the thing BG...I'll grant that money had been mismanaged somehow, someway by the former AD and that reserves were/are lower than what they ought to be...reserves.

You make a budget for sports based on the revenue you are projected to have, which barring some unforeseen calamity, is pretty easy to project in most areas. Maybe in the first year of the SECN, you might not be able to accurately project what that was gonna be...but the ball park area of revenue from the three major sports, revenue from March Madness, payouts from Bowls, TV, Merchandise, Tickets, donations...I can't think of a year when revenues dropped dramatically, there may be times where it remains stagnant, I remember around Dooley's first year it was around 100 million, he even remarked on it. I remember when we passed the 110 Million mark a couple of years ago and now we are over 120 Million.

My point is this. I realize football drives the machine. I realize that the fans of this program are loyal, passionate and we attend in big numbers all three of the major sports even when we are losing. We're building three new football fields and a brand new dorm.

But we can't come up with 50-75 grand to show the midweek games?

Last year would have been the year to fire Serrano. Expectations were high and the results were below par. Everybody new what was in store this season, some said if he could make a regional with this team he would deserve COY.

Maybe they wanted to give him one last shot because they like him.

Or...maybe they are just so cheap they didn't want to pay the buyout because the fans aren't going to lose any sleep over another losing year in baseball.

Maybe it was both.

I guess we should leave it at this: I don't believe UT is providing the baseball coach with all the resources he deserves or that they can muster. I don't believe they held up their end. I don't think they have a vision for the baseball program. Can I prove it? Can I pull out documents that provide evidence from every SEC school? No. I can't.

They aren't willing to take the petty loss to show the midweek games but other schools do, because they lack a vision about where baseball and softball are going. The popularity is going to grow, just like women's basketball and it's due to television.

They routinely make grammar school errors in their weekend release.

The post home game press conference looks like something channel 6 would do after a high school game compared to a Holbrook or Corbin post game, where they sit down, at a table, with working microphones and the school banner and take questions from reporters that you can actually hear.

When the baseball coach lucks into flying to Missouri because they couldn't secure two sleeper buses for the 10 hour drive...I mean...what the hell kind of planning is that? Travel ball teams are more organized than that.

Many have commented that the players we have don't look like SEC type players. Neither does the program.

We may never be THE program, but we shouldn't be the next to last worst job in the SEC.

There's 120 million reasons why we shouldn't...but here we sit.

I am with you on this. However, I am not the guy you need with you.

For it to change, the guys you need with you are boosters; folks that can sit down with ADs and administrators who convince them baseball and the other sports not properly funded needs their just due when it comes to budgeting.

That is how things have worked at UT for years. And it will probably be how it continues. Regardless of who is AD, or who is coaching. Nothing changes until a booster lights a fire under their feet.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

I'm not questioning you, but can we prove they fly as little as they do? Every weekend at WKU there's a charter bus or two from Nashville sitting outside the stadium for the visiting team. It's just assumed they're flying into Nashville and making the 60 mile drive from the airport to Bowling Green. Hard to believe these schools are doing it with regularity and we're not. IMO there's only a handful of places we should fly to anyway; TAMU, LSU, UF, Ark and Mizzou for sure. I can't believe Carolina is flying to Knoxville or Athens or Bama to many places at all as centrally located as they are.

 

[BruinVol]

I'm not questioning you, but can we prove they fly as little as they do? Every weekend at WKU there's a charter bus or two from Nashville sitting outside the stadium for the visiting team. It's just assumed they're flying into Nashville and making the 60 mile drive from the airport to Bowling Green. Hard to believe these schools are doing it with regularity and we're not. IMO there's only a handful of places we should fly to anyway; TAMU, LSU, UF, Ark and Mizzou for sure. I can't believe Carolina is flying to Knoxville or Athens or Bama to many places at all as centrally located as they are.

I can prove that vandy bused to lsu ealier this year. It was on twitter.

Some are using charter flights but that's a very new thing even for the richest of the programs

 

[vol66]

I'm not questioning you, but can we prove they fly as little as they do? Every weekend at WKU there's a charter bus or two from Nashville sitting outside the stadium for the visiting team. It's just assumed they're flying into Nashville and making the 60 mile drive from the airport to Bowling Green. Hard to believe these schools are doing it with regularity and we're not. IMO there's only a handful of places we should fly to anyway; TAMU, LSU, UF, Ark and Mizzou for sure. I can't believe Carolina is flying to Knoxville or Athens or Bama to many places at all as centrally located as they are.

As I said, I can't prove anything...I know LSU flew to South Bend and I know they flew to Knoxville and I know about our Mizzou trip through Deer Park and remember last year they took the busses and I verified all of this through team twitter accounts...The LSU one was funny, they had a stuffed Possum in the Captain's chair of the plane.

I know that Mizzou upped their budget in the six figure range when their coach was extended...he preferred an increased budget over a raise and their travel as a member of the east really isn't fair, but I'm sure they anticipated it when they joined.

Sometimes BG, you take all the info you can get, realize there are things you don't know/won't know and make as educated of a guess as you can. There are a lot of people here that know about the sport of baseball more than I. There are many who know more about finances at a University.

I don't know how many people follow the baseball program year around, but other than coaches, players and those families...I suspect there is very few of us.

We have been failing at baseball for a very long time, coaches, AD's, Chancellors/Presidents...have come and gone, hasn't mattered.

This thing with Serrano really troubles me. He was here in the midst of a good run for UT baseball in the mid nineties, I'm sure that's what he was hoping for and why he wanted the job and he knows what that looked like. His accomplishments after he left here are well known, so he knows what that look likes.

The only investment that I can see we've made in the last 5 years is in him, over 2 million dollars.

Kendall Rogers and Deer Park have both said the same thing, if he can't win here I don't know who can...

I may be a big fan but I also am a big critic and have wondered aloud on this forum about different baseball related things over the past 5 years, I try hard to be fair. This is not like Raleigh or Dooley or Wade, or Buzz...something isn't right, I'm trying my level best to figure it out.

I don't know what we should do.

 

[Mike Rapp]

I can prove that vandy bused to lsu ealier this year. It was on twitter.

Some are using charter flights but that's a very new thing even for the richest of the programs

Vandy also bused to College Station. The drive home was twice as long.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

As I said, I can't prove anything...I know LSU flew to South Bend and I know they flew to Knoxville and I know about our Mizzou trip through Deer Park and remember last year they took the busses and I verified all of this through team twitter accounts...The LSU one was funny, they had a stuffed Possum in the Captain's chair of the plane.

I know that Mizzou upped their budget in the six figure range when their coach was extended...he preferred an increased budget over a raise and their travel as a member of the east really isn't fair, but I'm sure they anticipated it when they joined.

Sometimes BG, you take all the info you can get, realize there are things you don't know/won't know and make as educated of a guess as you can. There are a lot of people here that know about the sport of baseball more than I. There are many who know more about finances at a University.

I don't know how many people follow the baseball program year around, but other than coaches, players and those families...I suspect there is very few of us.

We have been failing at baseball for a very long time, coaches, AD's, Chancellors/Presidents...have come and gone, hasn't mattered.

This thing with Serrano really troubles me. He was here in the midst of a good run for UT baseball in the mid nineties, I'm sure that's what he was hoping for and why he wanted the job and he knows what that looked like. His accomplishments after he left here are well known, so he knows what that look likes.

The only investment that I can see we've made in the last 5 years is in him, over 2 million dollars.

Kendall Rogers and Deer Park have both said the same thing, if he can't win here I don't know who can...

I may be a big fan but I also am a big critic and have wondered aloud on this forum about different baseball related things over the past 5 years, I try hard to be fair. This is not like Raleigh or Dooley or Wade, or Buzz...something isn't right, I'm trying my level best to figure it out.

I don't know what we should do.

Kendall has to know the sheer amount of talent Serrano had to choose from in Cali and that Fullerton is for all intents and purposes a glorified JUCO in terms of academics. I'm not saying academics is holding him back here but it's not a concern at all at a place like Fullerton. Fullerton is a hell of a program, and they may be just that, a great program. Gerrido CWS, Horton CWS, Serrano CWS, Vanderhook CWS. Even you and I may just be knowledgeable enough to not screw it up if we had the opportunity.

 

[Mike Rapp]

From what I can see, there's basically 3 big outliers here, where the increased expenses are more than simply salary and gameday operating expenses: LSU, Vandy and SCar. Other than that just about everybody can be explained by the other two categories. They all have "better" coaches than Serrano, justifying higher salaries and they all have substantially larger stadiums and/or crowds, justifying increased expenditures to host a function.

The real number to look at removes the cost of scholarships, because it is a fixed cost that has to be paid out of the program's budget, per NCAA rules. If you do that, Vandys budget is pretty much right in line with everyone else.

But I will also add this. The cost of a scholarship at UT has increased dramatically since the Delmonico era.

 

[vol66]

.

 

[BruinVol]

Vandy also bused to College Station. The drive home was twice as long.

That's odd

I know they chartered to florida.

 

[Diamond Dore]

Vandy may have known in advance that they only have a certain number of charters in the budget, and they probably used one in the non-conference with Stanford.

Vandy's road series this year (other than Knoxville) were all long distances: Stanford, LSU, Missouri, Texas A&M and Florida.