Tax reform

#26
#26
McDad said:
Taxation and revenue: Tax rates are not correlated to federal government revenue. Rates change what an individual pays. Rates do not change what federal government receives in revenue. Revenue average remains relatively constant at about 19% of GDP. The historical trend has been tracked since before WW2. Tax policy has changed frequently over those years. Tax rates have fluctuated dramatically as well. Therefore, one must be careful using phrases like, "deficit increasing tax cuts", or, "revenue neutral". These types of phrases are oxymoronic, at best. They are likely an outright lie used by the political class to manipulate the constituency, at worst.

Those who worry about revenue would have more success by championing aggressive growth in GDP. So far, this is the only historically valid method to increase money in the federal cofer. 19% of 100 Trillion is more than 19% of 20 Trillion. The rate one pays has no effect on how little or how much revenue is collected. GDP grows, currently, regardless of the policies of any particular administration. Both Rs and Ds have been in power during booms and busts. Economic expansion and retraction in America has been largely insulated from central planning by both parties.

For me then the question becomes: if revenue percentage is constant relative to GDP and only increased by increasing GDP and GDP is relatively uncontrollable by politicians, then what are we arguing about? The only control politicians have on tax monies is the spending of the revenue. Neither party and no configuration of DC, save two, has shown any evidence over 70 years that spending is a legitimate concern.
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I stand corrected, this is fancy stuff. I wonder if the treasury is aware that our taxes aren't needed to pay bills. If'n this is true, I'd like a tax rate of 0% please.
 
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#27
#27
Septic said:
I stand corrected, this is fancy stuff. I wonder if the treasury is aware that our taxes aren't needed to pay bills. If'n this is true, I'd like a tax rate of 0% please.
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That's exactly what the income tax rate should be. Taxing income is not only absurd but also requires an insane amount of intrusion into our personal lives to achieve.
 
#28
#28
Vol8188 said:
That's exactly what the income tax rate should be. Taxing income is not only absurd but also requires an insane amount of intrusion into our personal lives to achieve.
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How would you suggest things like infrastructure, defense etc. be paid for?

I hate taxes as much as the next guy but understand that taxes serve a valid purpose.
 
#29
#29
McDad said:
Taxation and revenue: Tax rates are not correlated to federal government revenue. Rates change what an individual pays. Rates do not change what federal government receives in revenue. Revenue average remains relatively constant at about 19% of GDP. The historical trend has been tracked since before WW2. Tax policy has changed frequently over those years. Tax rates have fluctuated dramatically as well. Therefore, one must be careful using phrases like, "deficit increasing tax cuts", or, "revenue neutral". These types of phrases are oxymoronic, at best. They are likely an outright lie used by the political class to manipulate the constituency, at worst.

Those who worry about revenue would have more success by championing aggressive growth in GDP. So far, this is the only historically valid method to increase money in the federal cofer. 19% of 100 Trillion is more than 19% of 20 Trillion. The rate one pays has no effect on how little or how much revenue is collected. GDP grows, currently, regardless of the policies of any particular administration. Both Rs and Ds have been in power during booms and busts. Economic expansion and retraction in America has been largely insulated from central planning by both parties.

For me then the question becomes: if revenue percentage is constant relative to GDP and only increased by increasing GDP and GDP is relatively uncontrollable by politicians, then what are we arguing about? The only control politicians have on tax monies is the spending of the revenue. Neither party and no configuration of DC, save two, has shown any evidence over 70 years that spending is a legitimate concern.
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Solid post but what did you do with McDad?
 
#30
#30
Septic said:
How would you suggest things like infrastructure, defense etc. be paid for?

I hate taxes as much as the next guy but understand that taxes serve a valid purpose.
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Pretty sure he didn't say get rid of taxes. He said get rid of the income tax.
 
#31
#31
Vol8188 said:
That's exactly what the income tax rate should be. Taxing income is not only absurd but also requires an insane amount of intrusion into our personal lives to achieve.
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If the tax rate were zero your kids would still be walking down pig trails to one room schools heated with pot belly stoves.
 
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#32
#32
MT LeConte said:
If the tax rate were zero your kids would still be walking down pig trails to one room schools heated with pot belly stoves.
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How did the United States become one of the most powerful nations in the world without one for so long then? Relative to the rest of the world, the United States was not some backwater outpost in 1913.
 
#33
#33
I'll never really be satisfied until there is a flat tax and the scope and size of the Federal government is much, much smaller......guess that means that I will never really be satisfied.
 
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#35
#35
I hate taxes... Especially when others get milk the system and live off the govt while people like me who pay in lot of money and get nothing in return in terms of social services because I don't "qualify" are labeled greedy...
 
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#37
#37
Septic said:
How would you suggest things like infrastructure, defense etc. be paid for?

I hate taxes as much as the next guy but understand that taxes serve a valid purpose.
Click to expand...

We had all of those things prior to income tax. A mix of sales tax and property tax. Property tax is probably the easiest way because then you don't have to rely on financial records that have probably been faked to begin with.
 
#38
#38
MT LeConte said:
If the tax rate were zero your kids would still be walking down pig trails to one room schools heated with pot belly stoves.
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Right. Because that had nothing to do with the poverty of the time or anything. It was income taxes.

This is the dumbest part of liberalism. You take basic progress and give credit to government.

"We had pot belly stoves and one room schools that we walked to, not because of poverty, a lack of cars, and small populations....but because we weren't stealing enough of your money".
 
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#39
#39
Vol8188 said:
We had all of those things prior to income tax. A mix of sales tax and property tax. Property tax is probably the easiest way because then you don't have to rely on financial records that have probably been faked to begin with.
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**** no on the property tax! You should never be taxed on your property, nobody actually owns anything if it’s subject tax.

Straight consumption tax and tariffs.
 
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#40
#40
hog88 said:
**** no on the property tax! You should never be taxed on your property, nobody actually owns anything if it’s subject tax.

Straight consumption tax and tariffs.
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I get that, but they are so easy to implement compared to the rest
 
#42
#42
Septic said:
I stand corrected, this is fancy stuff. I wonder if the treasury is aware that our taxes aren't needed to pay bills. If'n this is true, I'd like a tax rate of 0% please.
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I tried to tell you the hole you were digging was getting deeper and muddier. But you had to smart off about it. ;-)

I wish the record went far enough back to show revenues sans income tax. Would be interesting.

Full disclosure: McMom and I paid a tax rate of 12% in 2016.
 
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#44
#44
McDad said:
I tried to tell you the hole you were digging was getting deeper and muddier. But you had to smart off about it. ;-)

I wish the record went far enough back to show revenues sans income tax. Would be interesting.

Full disclosure: McMom and I paid a tax rate of 12% in 2016.
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Your setup was obvious, I still don't feel like I'm in a hole. I guess I'm not smart enough to figure out how tax revenue isn't a result of taxes.
 
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#45
#45
Chuck Schumer is a tool.. said I very concerned about the Deficit.. he Is an absolute ass hat in his comments are laughable
 
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#47
#47
Septic said:
Your setup was obvious, I still don't feel like I'm in a hole. I guess I'm not smart enough to figure out how tax revenue isn't a result of taxes.
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Agreed. Let's hope it is ignorance rather than stupidity.
 
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#48
#48
McDad said:
Agreed. Let's hope it is ignorance rather than stupidity.
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It's a crime that this knowledge is wasted here instead of being used to enlighten Americans on a broader scale. That the country's bills could be paid without collecting taxes is truly a astonishing revelation.

It must be frustrating knowing that the proposed tax cuts won't really result in a $1.5T addion to the deficit as is being foisted.
 
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#49
#49
Septic said:
It's a crime that this knowledge is wasted here instead of being used to enlighten Americans on a broader scale. That the country's bills could be paid without collecting taxes is truly a astonishing revelation.

It must be frustrating knowing that the proposed tax cuts won't really result in a $1.5T addion to the deficit as is being foisted.
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You continue to beat the drum of absurdity. Again, I'm hoping youre suffering with simple ignorance.

The historical data reviewed tax rates and the % actually collected. There is no data of which im aware about a zero tax rate. Additionally, income tax isn't the only source of revenue.

To repeat, tax cuts don't result in deficits as outlined above.

This is probably my favorite subject discussed on this forum. Thanks for the opportunity, Sep.
 
#50
#50
McDad said:
You continue to beat the drum of absurdity. Again, I'm hoping youre suffering with simple ignorance.

The historical data reviewed tax rates and the % actually collected. There is no data of which im aware about a zero tax rate. Additionally, income tax isn't the only source of revenue.

To repeat, tax cuts don't result in deficits as outlined above.

This is probably my favorite subject discussed on this forum. Thanks for the opportunity, Sep.
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Could you take a guess on what the income tax revenue would be with a zero tax rate on income? I mean, can you ball park it?

This may be the best kept secret on earth, I feel like this should be shared beyond the borders of VN PF. I mean even the economists who get paid to do this are asserting the false narrative that the proposed cuts will add an additional $1.5T. How is this possible?
 
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