Star Wars: Episode VIII (December 15, 2017)

#51
#51
BowlBrother85 said:
Okay, slightly off topic here but I'm in an argument with a co-worker that simply must be won...

He is insisting that there is a disturbance in the force and a major continuity error exists and has been allowed to fester in the galaxy far, far away. I have an explanation but he's not buying it. I am looking for other opinions.

In Episode XI (Return of the Jedi - released in 1983), Luke asks Leia if she remembers her mother. She responds that her mother died when she was young but was "Very beautiful. Kind... but sad." Luke then tells her that he has no memories of his mother and that he never knew her. Now, in Episode III (Revenge of the Sith - released in 2005) we see that Padme dies during childbirth. I just think that the Organa's never told Leia that she was adopted. Her memories are of the person she was raised to believe was her mother (Queen Breha - Bail's wife) who was probably sad because of all the unrest and war within the galaxy.

What are your thoughts? Continuity error or not?
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Not necessarily a continuity error. Remember Yoda mentioned the Force can make you see the past and future. Being that Leia was strong with the Force, but unaware of her powers in ROTJ, she could have been seeing Padme in the past. What she thought were "memories" were actually images that came from the Force.

At least, that's how I'd sell it.
 
#52
#52
Grand Vol said:
Not necessarily a continuity error. Remember Yoda mentioned the Force can make you see the past and future. Being that Leia was strong with the Force, but unaware of her powers in ROTJ, she could have been seeing Padme in the past. What she thought were "memories" were actually images that came from the Force.

At least, that's how I'd sell it.
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I think you give Lucas too much credit. I'm with BowlBrother85, I think Leia was just remembering who adopted mother.
 
#53
#53
Burhead said:
I think you give Lucas too much credit. I'm with BowlBrother85, I think Leia was just remembering who adopted mother.
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I think you're still giving Lucas too much credit.

The prequels were crap all the way down to the continuity with the original trilogy.

He botched that one, just like he botched Obi-wan not recognizing R2/3PO.
 
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#54
#54
chatt-townVOL said:
I think you're still giving Lucas too much credit.

The prequels were crap all the way down to the continuity with the original trilogy.

He botched that one, just like he botched Obi-wan not recognizing R2/3PO.
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I used to think that about R2 and 3PO but the more SW content that comes out the more you realize people in the SW galaxy totally dismiss droids. They are like appliances. In fact there is an episode of clone wars where R2 is captured by Grevious. Obiwan is just like "oh well, it's just a droid" but Anakin has to admit he never wipes R2's memory and all their flight plans and maneuvers are stored in R2. Obiwan gives him a big lecture about wiping R2's memory after every mission before allowing Anakin to go retrieve R2.

It would be like someone handing you an iPhone 5 20 years from now. You wouldnt remember if that was your personal old iPhone or just another one that looked like it.
 
#55
#55
chatt-townVOL said:
I think you're still giving Lucas too much credit.

The prequels were crap all the way down to the continuity with the original trilogy.

He botched that one, just like he botched Obi-wan not recognizing R2/3PO.
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Just like he botched the fact that Obi Wan tells Luke that Yoda was the "Jedi who taught me" and then gives us Qui Gon Jin in TPM.

I was constantly amazed how many times Lucas wrote himself into a corner when it came to continuity with the OT.
 
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#56
#56
Brave Volunteer said:
Just like he botched the fact that Obi Wan tells Luke that Yoda was the "Jedi who taught me" and then gives us Qui Gon Jin in TPM.

I was constantly amazed how many times Lucas wrote himself into a corner when it came to continuity with the OT.
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He never said he was Yoda's padawan. It's my understanding Yoda instructed all younglings in some fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lucas was flawless by any stretch. Ive always said his claim that he had the whole thing plotted out was BS.

They had no clue Vader was Luke's father when writing epIV and Leia as sister was a cheap cop-out of the love triangle with Luke,Leia, and Han.
 
#57
#57
burntorangeVOLffle said:
He never said he was Yoda's padawan. It's my understanding Yoda instructed all younglings in some fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lucas was flawless by any stretch. Ive always said his claim that he had the whole thing plotted out was BS.

They had no clue Vader was Luke's father when writing epIV and Leia as sister was a cheap cop-out of the love triangle with Luke,Leia, and Han.
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I agree about Luke and Leia being twins was a 'cop-out' as you say (how would you explain their kiss on Hoth?) but I disagree that Vader being Luke's father wasn't planned from the very beginning... The scene in Episode IV where Aunt Beru tells Uncle Owen that "Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him." and Owen responds, "That's what I'm afraid of." is an ominous moment that not everyone missed - even the very first time around.
 
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#58
#58
burntorangeVOLffle said:
He never said he was Yoda's padawan. It's my understanding Yoda instructed all younglings in some fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lucas was flawless by any stretch. Ive always said his claim that he had the whole thing plotted out was BS.

They had no clue Vader was Luke's father when writing epIV and Leia as sister was a cheap cop-out of the love triangle with Luke,Leia, and Han.
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Only because that terminology wasn't being used by Lucas in 1980. Obi Wan's line in Empire Strikes Back was "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi Knight who instructed me". That is as plain and factual as you can make it. The whole Yoda training all younglings was yet another clumsy example of Lucas trying to navigate his way out of a corner he had written himself into. He continuously introduced new ideas that flew directly into the face of what had been established in the OT (midiclorians anyone?)

My suspicion is the reason Lucas created Qui Gon in the first place was a matter of logistics. Technology at the time did not allow for a fully realized digital Yoda to be in so many action sequences so he needed a human in the mentor role. However I maintain that Qui Gon was a completely unnecessary character and Lucas didn't have to introduce Obi Wan to us as still a Padawan learner. The movie could've opened with Yoda granting Obi Wan his Jedi Knight status and sending him alone to negotiate with the viceroy over the trade dispute. From there the movie could've transpired almost exactly the same way. He also didn't have to make Anakin so young in the beginning. Anakin's was like 10 in TPM. Why? It would've been so simple to make him around 14 or 15 and nothing would've changed. He still would've been a dependent, living with his mom as a slave. Plus he would've been MUCH closer to Padme in age, making their whole dynamic less creepy-awkward.
 
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#59
#59
Brave Volunteer said:
Only because that terminology wasn't being used by Lucas in 1980. Obi Wan's line in Empire Strikes Back was "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi Knight who instructed me". That is as plain and factual as you can make it. The whole Yoda training all younglings was yet another clumsy example of Lucas trying to navigate his way out of a corner he had written himself into. He continuously introduced new ideas that flew directly into the face of what had been established in the OT (midiclorians anyone?)

My suspicion is the reason Lucas created Qui Gon in the first place was a matter of logistics. Technology at the time did not allow for a fully realized digital Yoda to be in so many action sequences so he needed a human in the mentor role. However I maintain that Qui Gon was a completely unnecessary character and Lucas didn't have to introduce Obi Wan to us as still a Padawan learner. The movie could've opened with Yoda granting Obi Wan his Jedi Knight status and sending him alone to negotiate with the viceroy over the trade dispute. From there the movie could've transpired almost exactly the same way. He also didn't have to make Anakin so young in the beginning. Anakin's was like 10 in TPM. Why? It would've been so simple to make him around 14 or 15 and nothing would've changed. He still would've been a dependent, living with his mom as a slave. Plus he would've been MUCH closer to Padme in age, making their whole dynamic less creepy-awkward.
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Taking this quite seriously....
 
#60
#60
BowlBrother85 said:
I agree about Luke and Leia being twins was a 'cop-out' as you say (how would you explain their kiss on Hoth?) but I disagree that Vader being Luke's father wasn't planned from the very beginning... The scene in Episode IV where Aunt Beru tells Uncle Owen that "Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him." and Owen responds, "That's what I'm afraid of." is an ominous moment that not everyone missed - even the very first time around.
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I get that but from everything Ive read over the years they were still deciding on a few options for Vader and Luke when they started writing Empire.

The original drafts actually had Luke Starkiller as Anakin's reluctant mentor.
 
#61
#61
Brave Volunteer said:
Only because that terminology wasn't being used by Lucas in 1980. Obi Wan's line in Empire Strikes Back was "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi Knight who instructed me". That is as plain and factual as you can make it. The whole Yoda training all younglings was yet another clumsy example of Lucas trying to navigate his way out of a corner he had written himself into. He continuously introduced new ideas that flew directly into the face of what had been established in the OT (midiclorians anyone?)
Click to expand...

Well I can still dismiss that as overstating Yoda's role in young Obiwan's training. I have had a lot of instructors through out my collegiate and professional career. I can point to any and say he instructed me.

My suspicion is the reason Lucas created Qui Gon in the first place was a matter of logistics. Technology at the time did not allow for a fully realized digital Yoda to be in so many action sequences so he needed a human in the mentor role. However I maintain that Qui Gon was a completely unnecessary character and Lucas didn't have to introduce Obi Wan to us as still a Padawan learner. The movie could've opened with Yoda granting Obi Wan his Jedi Knight status and sending him alone to negotiate with the viceroy over the trade dispute. From there the movie could've transpired almost exactly the same way. He also didn't have to make Anakin so young in the beginning. Anakin's was like 10 in TPM. Why? It would've been so simple to make him around 14 or 15 and nothing would've changed. He still would've been a dependent, living with his mom as a slave. Plus he would've been MUCH closer to Padme in age, making their whole dynamic less creepy-awkward.
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I mostly agree with this though. Yoda was still a puppet I. The 1999 release of TPM. He was later replaced with a CGI version to match the other 2 (let's be thankful he didn't go back and do that in Empire too). You may very well be onto the creation of Qui-Gon.

I also agree that Anakin should have been a litttle older. No younger than around 12.
 
#62
#62
burntorangeVOLffle said:
He never said he was Yoda's padawan. It's my understanding Yoda instructed all younglings in some fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lucas was flawless by any stretch. Ive always said his claim that he had the whole thing plotted out was BS.

They had no clue Vader was Luke's father when writing epIV and Leia as sister was a cheap cop-out of the love triangle with Luke,Leia, and Han.
Click to expand...

The story that Lucas didn't take the customary raise from directing American Graffiti in lieu of sequel and merchandising rights for Star Wars, which ended up generating his multi-billionaire status is fascinating but also shows the fickle side of luck/brilliant decisions. As he edited his final product, he was so unimpressed that when he visited his buddy Spielberg's set filming Close Encounters of the Third Kind, he finagled a deal where they traded a few points from each's movie. Lucas actually felt his own work would be moderately successful...but a one and done. Spielberg's of course was a huge success, but paled in proceeds years down the road. Spielberg still banks about 10 mil a year from that friend deal. For that reason, I doubt Lucas had this end game figured out from the beginning.
 
#63
#63
burntorangeVOLffle said:
Well I can still dismiss that as overstating Yoda's role in young Obiwan's training. I have had a lot of instructors through out my collegiate and professional career. I can point to any and say he instructed me.



I mostly agree with this though. Yoda was still a puppet I. The 1999 release of TPM. He was later replaced with a CGI version to match the other 2 (let's be thankful he didn't go back and do that in Empire too). You may very well be onto the creation of Qui-Gon.

I also agree that Anakin should have been a litttle older. No younger than around 12.
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He was still playing to the kid market. Watching someone their own age kick azz on screen was like Ewoks on steroids in his marketing mind.
 
#64
#64
Burhead said:
I think you give Lucas too much credit. I'm with BowlBrother85, I think Leia was just remembering who adopted mother.
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Just offering a reasonable explanation into the idea, that's all.

It's not like I invented midichlorians or something.
 
#65
#65
Lucas went off the reservation with Ep. 1
Anakin character was horrible.
Anakin should have been introduced at the same age Luke was introduced.
The whole virgin birth? Ridiculous.
Anakin's mother was a waste. I'd rather have seen him introduced as an orphan.
And the dialogue was just horrid.

Id have love to have seen an orphan Anakin and a much darker character. One who was aware of his powers but was using them for survival. Also, maybe a character who is using the dark side and influencing Anakin from his youth, who later introduces him to Palatine.
 
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#67
#67
Roustabout said:
Lucas went off the reservation with Ep. 1
Anakin character was horrible.
Anakin should have been introduced at the same age Luke was introduced.
The whole virgin birth? Ridiculous.
Anakin's mother was a waste. I'd rather have seen him introduced as an orphan.
And the dialogue was just horrid.

Id have love to have seen an orphan Anakin and a much darker character. One who was aware of his powers but was using them for survival. Also, maybe a character who is using the dark side and influencing Anakin from his youth, who later introduces him to Palatine.
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I 100% agree with all of this and would even add a few things... Anakin building C-3PO was just dumb and cutesy. Lucas was treating this galaxy like it was Mayberry - where everybody knows everybody. The child actor used for Anakin (Jake Lloyd) was terrible as most child actors are. Introducing him as a child also left no room for any mystery in the character. Anakin also should have been given a peer and close friend instead of just a master and a love interest. The Jedi are a lot like the Knights of the Round Table. Anakin needed a peer/buddy like Sir Lancelot needed Sir Perceval.
 
#69
#69
BowlBrother85 said:
I 100% agree with all of this and would even add a few things... Anakin building C-3PO was just dumb and cutesy. Lucas was treating this galaxy like it was Mayberry - where everybody knows everybody. The child actor used for Anakin (Jake Lloyd) was terrible as most child actors are. Introducing him as a child also left no room for any mystery in the character. Anakin also should have been given a peer and close friend instead of just a master and a love interest. The Jedi are a lot like the Knights of the Round Table. Anakin needed a peer/buddy like Sir Lancelot needed Sir Perceval.
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Well I still maintain they should've never cast a 10 year old as Anakin in the first place (he should've been older). However the funny thing is, if you go back and watch the audition tapes, Jake Lloyd was far and away the best candidate. Now, could they have spent a little more time on the vetting process and cast a wider net? Maybe but OF the pool of candidates they auditioned, Jake was the right choice.
 
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#70
#70
Roustabout said:
Lucas went off the reservation with Ep. 1
Anakin character was horrible.
Anakin should have been introduced at the same age Luke was introduced.
The whole virgin birth? Ridiculous.
Anakin's mother was a waste. I'd rather have seen him introduced as an orphan.
And the dialogue was just horrid.

Id have love to have seen an orphan Anakin and a much darker character. One who was aware of his powers but was using them for survival. Also, maybe a character who is using the dark side and influencing Anakin from his youth, who later introduces him to Palatine.
Click to expand...


Ill have to disagree with Anakin's mother being a waist. Anakins love for his mother was the driving point of him going to the dark side. Ill agree with you on that they should have introduced him at the age id 16-17.
 
#74
#74
burntorangeVOLffle said:
Good lord... ewan mcgregor and DiCaprio would have been the power duo of all time.
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There were rumors at the time that older Anakin was going to be played by Leo DiCaprio. I actually thought it would have been a great choice because he actually looked a lot like an older Jake Lloyd. Plus he's a fine actor
 
#75
#75
Brave Volunteer said:
There were rumors at the time that older Anakin was going to be played by Leo DiCaprio. I actually thought it would have been a great choice because he actually looked a lot like an older Jake Lloyd. Plus he's a fine actor
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"Fine actor" is an understatement.

Although Lucas probably would have made him look bad.
 
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