Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXI
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seaofORANGE22
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Butch has seriously caused almost all of us in here to lose faith in him over the course of 4 weeks.
That's pretty crazy if you think about it.
That's an unbelievable fall from grace.
I kind of want to take a step back for a minute and make sure I'm seeing things clearly.
I'm starting to wonder if we aren't jumping the gun a little bit. Butch is still our guy for now. Can he figure this thing out and turn things around? Not many seem to think he's capable of that. But to be honest, whether or not any of us have faith in him has no bearing on how this all plays out. It's his team. He will have a lot to do with how his teams responds.
Let's rewind 4 weeks for just a minute. As an exercise....
1. Recruiting is taking off. QB's for miles. At this point we all still love Dobbs. But behind him currently we have two highly regarded talents. As well as two of the top QB's in the nation coming in consecutive years. This position is in place to improve drastically over the next few years. Out of these options, it's likely we find one or maybe even two players that turn out to be a star here.
2. The WR unit is talented and deep. Based on what we've learned so far this season I would say something is clearly wrong. Are all of these guys busts? Not likely. More likely their position coach is. These guys have not been put in position to succeed. A change is needed. No doubt. Lots of young talent. Maybe the best on the team.
3. The offensive line is seen as potentially hopeless. This doesn't seem to be the case any longer. We've seen Kerbyson man the left side well, Robertson has built on his play from last year as a freshman, Coleman Thomas looks like the center of the future that we all envisioned. Not sure about the rest, but there is young talent brewing deep on the depth chart. This group is on the upswing.
4. Running backs are a strength. This still holds true. Kelly being good only improves the outlook of this unit for the future. Have another highly touted freshmen coming in next year. Gillespie is probably our most valued assistant. Would love to see him stick around.
5. The Dline is getting stacked. The most exciting talent on the roster is freshmen and sophomores on the Dline. These guys will only improve and this really could be a dominant group in the coming years. Losing Maggitt was incredibly costly and we would have all mourned his loss and altered our expectations drastically if we had lost him before the first game.
6. Linebackers were a huge question mark. They appear to still be. This has not been a group that has "overachieved" by any means. JRM is fantastic but can't do it all on his own. Kirkland looks like the future in this spot, but we cannot count on him yet. Getting closer every week. He will be excellent down the road. In a perfect world, he would be lighting up the game on special teams, but unfortunately we have no better options so he has to play.
7. Secondary was viewed as a strength in theory. Mainly due to the presence of Cam Sutton. Many argued that losing Gaulden would be incredibly costly, and so far that appears to be true. Also losing Martin for a few weeks in training camp set him back enough to where he has rarely made a mark up to this point of the season. We basically lost them both for this 5 game stretch. Not to mention we lost McNeil for the first 2. Knowing all of that, we may have lowered our expectations even more. Moseley and Foreman have not taken the step forward we all hoped they would. Randolph has not been the steady veteran leader we expected. They appear to all be weaknesses. It would be nice to have Michael Williams as well as Devaun Swafford in the mix. There were a ton of setbacks in this unit over the offseason. Feels like we don't have a ton of options, and are again turning to freshmen for answers.
8. Stability. The coaching staff under Butch Jones has had continuity unlike what we've seen here in a long time. Not sure this is turning out to be a good thing. But it's very likely this changes and we see some impactful shake ups on the staff going into next year. I am already of the belief that a few coaches need to go. I won't mention names. But some are starting to look obvious. This staff needs some new and fresh blood.
It's possible that we are all beaten and battered fans who aren't able to see the progress and the set backs at the same time. Because honestly, we weren't sold on this season as being another one of progress, at least not by the media. We were sold on this season being the one where everything changed. Where we won big. That's not happening yet. And it sucks. But I think Butch tried to warn us in the preseason. He continually said that weren't there yet. But we were getting closer. He's right. We are close. So close it hurts.
When you look at it, you can see there has been improvement. Not enough to impact the win/loss record yet, but it's there. It may not ever look like the kind of jump that Ole Miss or Florida or Bama all took. It might be more gradual. If we had stayed healthy, I believe we had a huge opportunity to fast forward that progress a year early, but we did not. Injuries hit us hard and heavy, and we're not there yet from a depth standpoint to survive it.
Also one notable moment in the Arkansas game stuck out to me.
Late in the 4th quarter and Arkansas is running the ball down our throats. Our defense is giving everything they've got to try to get off the field and give the offense one more chance. The strength of that Hogs team is their offensive line. They are a humongous veteran group. In the middle of our defense we were playing Kahlil and Tuttle as the DT's and Kirkland as the MLB. That's 3 true freshmen playing in front of 100,000 people in their 5th collegiate game ever trying to man the middle of the field against one of the better rushing teams in the SEC down the stretch of a close game. And honestly they were playing pretty well.
But this isn't how this season was sold to us. 3 true freshmen? in the middle of our D trying to stuff the run? Against Arkansas? That's tough man. We were supposed to have a great defense. But how many great defenses across the country are relying on 3 freshmen in those positions at that point in the game? I would guess not many. Highly regarded or not, history suggests those players need a full year to be as effective as they can be. This team has no such luxury of time. Also apparently the upperclassmen ahead of them are no more trustworthy to be playing instead. No depth.
We have had struggles and the coaching has been atrocious in moments. But man, a lot of breaks that were out of our control have gone against us. There is talent on this team, absolutely. And with that talent we have lost football games in as baffling of ways as I could have ever dreamed up.
But the talent on this team is not developed yet. It really just isn't. The best players need to be on the field, but their lack of experience comes back to bite us. The upperclassmen have the experience but lack the ability to make the plays. If you are a reasonable and unbiased person and you just looked at this situation for what it was and took away the expectations or pressure or what people on SEC Network were saying, this looks like a team that might be really close but still just hasn't turned that corner yet.
I still believe there are changes that need to be made. Scheme and coaching wise, we have seen some ridiculous stuff so far. But this could all look a lot different once we get to the end of the year. I think the expectations have to change though. We have to let go of the pressure to win. Just keep building and keep developing. We should be looked at and treated as the underdogs from here on out.
If nothing else it could be really fun to see players like Kahlil get better game after game. His dominance is coming. Just a matter of time.
I need more from Butch regardless. But I'm not going to make any final judgements on him until we can look back on this season and take everything that has happened into account.
I'm hopeful for better days ahead.
Sorry this was so long.
Go Vols
That's pretty crazy if you think about it.
That's an unbelievable fall from grace.
I kind of want to take a step back for a minute and make sure I'm seeing things clearly.
I'm starting to wonder if we aren't jumping the gun a little bit. Butch is still our guy for now. Can he figure this thing out and turn things around? Not many seem to think he's capable of that. But to be honest, whether or not any of us have faith in him has no bearing on how this all plays out. It's his team. He will have a lot to do with how his teams responds.
Let's rewind 4 weeks for just a minute. As an exercise....
1. Recruiting is taking off. QB's for miles. At this point we all still love Dobbs. But behind him currently we have two highly regarded talents. As well as two of the top QB's in the nation coming in consecutive years. This position is in place to improve drastically over the next few years. Out of these options, it's likely we find one or maybe even two players that turn out to be a star here.
2. The WR unit is talented and deep. Based on what we've learned so far this season I would say something is clearly wrong. Are all of these guys busts? Not likely. More likely their position coach is. These guys have not been put in position to succeed. A change is needed. No doubt. Lots of young talent. Maybe the best on the team.
3. The offensive line is seen as potentially hopeless. This doesn't seem to be the case any longer. We've seen Kerbyson man the left side well, Robertson has built on his play from last year as a freshman, Coleman Thomas looks like the center of the future that we all envisioned. Not sure about the rest, but there is young talent brewing deep on the depth chart. This group is on the upswing.
4. Running backs are a strength. This still holds true. Kelly being good only improves the outlook of this unit for the future. Have another highly touted freshmen coming in next year. Gillespie is probably our most valued assistant. Would love to see him stick around.
5. The Dline is getting stacked. The most exciting talent on the roster is freshmen and sophomores on the Dline. These guys will only improve and this really could be a dominant group in the coming years. Losing Maggitt was incredibly costly and we would have all mourned his loss and altered our expectations drastically if we had lost him before the first game.
6. Linebackers were a huge question mark. They appear to still be. This has not been a group that has "overachieved" by any means. JRM is fantastic but can't do it all on his own. Kirkland looks like the future in this spot, but we cannot count on him yet. Getting closer every week. He will be excellent down the road. In a perfect world, he would be lighting up the game on special teams, but unfortunately we have no better options so he has to play.
7. Secondary was viewed as a strength in theory. Mainly due to the presence of Cam Sutton. Many argued that losing Gaulden would be incredibly costly, and so far that appears to be true. Also losing Martin for a few weeks in training camp set him back enough to where he has rarely made a mark up to this point of the season. We basically lost them both for this 5 game stretch. Not to mention we lost McNeil for the first 2. Knowing all of that, we may have lowered our expectations even more. Moseley and Foreman have not taken the step forward we all hoped they would. Randolph has not been the steady veteran leader we expected. They appear to all be weaknesses. It would be nice to have Michael Williams as well as Devaun Swafford in the mix. There were a ton of setbacks in this unit over the offseason. Feels like we don't have a ton of options, and are again turning to freshmen for answers.
8. Stability. The coaching staff under Butch Jones has had continuity unlike what we've seen here in a long time. Not sure this is turning out to be a good thing. But it's very likely this changes and we see some impactful shake ups on the staff going into next year. I am already of the belief that a few coaches need to go. I won't mention names. But some are starting to look obvious. This staff needs some new and fresh blood.
It's possible that we are all beaten and battered fans who aren't able to see the progress and the set backs at the same time. Because honestly, we weren't sold on this season as being another one of progress, at least not by the media. We were sold on this season being the one where everything changed. Where we won big. That's not happening yet. And it sucks. But I think Butch tried to warn us in the preseason. He continually said that weren't there yet. But we were getting closer. He's right. We are close. So close it hurts.
When you look at it, you can see there has been improvement. Not enough to impact the win/loss record yet, but it's there. It may not ever look like the kind of jump that Ole Miss or Florida or Bama all took. It might be more gradual. If we had stayed healthy, I believe we had a huge opportunity to fast forward that progress a year early, but we did not. Injuries hit us hard and heavy, and we're not there yet from a depth standpoint to survive it.
Also one notable moment in the Arkansas game stuck out to me.
Late in the 4th quarter and Arkansas is running the ball down our throats. Our defense is giving everything they've got to try to get off the field and give the offense one more chance. The strength of that Hogs team is their offensive line. They are a humongous veteran group. In the middle of our defense we were playing Kahlil and Tuttle as the DT's and Kirkland as the MLB. That's 3 true freshmen playing in front of 100,000 people in their 5th collegiate game ever trying to man the middle of the field against one of the better rushing teams in the SEC down the stretch of a close game. And honestly they were playing pretty well.
But this isn't how this season was sold to us. 3 true freshmen? in the middle of our D trying to stuff the run? Against Arkansas? That's tough man. We were supposed to have a great defense. But how many great defenses across the country are relying on 3 freshmen in those positions at that point in the game? I would guess not many. Highly regarded or not, history suggests those players need a full year to be as effective as they can be. This team has no such luxury of time. Also apparently the upperclassmen ahead of them are no more trustworthy to be playing instead. No depth.
We have had struggles and the coaching has been atrocious in moments. But man, a lot of breaks that were out of our control have gone against us. There is talent on this team, absolutely. And with that talent we have lost football games in as baffling of ways as I could have ever dreamed up.
But the talent on this team is not developed yet. It really just isn't. The best players need to be on the field, but their lack of experience comes back to bite us. The upperclassmen have the experience but lack the ability to make the plays. If you are a reasonable and unbiased person and you just looked at this situation for what it was and took away the expectations or pressure or what people on SEC Network were saying, this looks like a team that might be really close but still just hasn't turned that corner yet.
I still believe there are changes that need to be made. Scheme and coaching wise, we have seen some ridiculous stuff so far. But this could all look a lot different once we get to the end of the year. I think the expectations have to change though. We have to let go of the pressure to win. Just keep building and keep developing. We should be looked at and treated as the underdogs from here on out.
If nothing else it could be really fun to see players like Kahlil get better game after game. His dominance is coming. Just a matter of time.
I need more from Butch regardless. But I'm not going to make any final judgements on him until we can look back on this season and take everything that has happened into account.
I'm hopeful for better days ahead.
Sorry this was so long.
Go Vols
Last edited:
The Breakerboy
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The Breakerboy
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GoBigOrangeVols
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GoBigOrangeVols
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The Breakerboy
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butchna
Sit down and tell me all about it...way over there
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Chavis's contract was up...my question was due to the Wickerline situation at Texas with Oklahoma State. Wickerline was the OL coach at OSU but got hired away by Strong as an OL/Co- Offensive Coordinator. OSU has cried foul because he never appeared to call plays. That's going to trial.
Cumbie's contract isn't up...he re-signed two seasons ago for a nice penny. This is buyout stuff.
thomaseusin
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InVOLuntary
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It's apparent that the coaches are frustrated, the AD is frustrated, the players are frustrated, the parents are frustrated, the former players are frustrated, the parents of former players are frustrated, the boosters are frustrated, the parents of boosters are frustrated, the fans and their parents are frustrated, the media is frustrated, heck, even Charlie in the Farmer's Insurance commercial is frustrated. And, let's don't forget the snakes of Thailand are frustrated. I'm frustrated over all this frustration.
OGbabyaviVol
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OGbabyaviVol
Performing horse rectal exams for a living
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nicksjuzunk
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rekinhavoc
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The similarities between Butch and Rich Rod are striking.
Is Butch getting the Michigan treatment?
Michigan Wolverines fire Rich Rodriguez as coach
"Under Rodriguez, the program was hit by the kind of news it
dreaded.
Just before the 2009 season, anonymous players told the Detroit
Free Press that the Rodriguez-led program was exceeding NCAA limits
on practice and training time."
Is Butch getting the Michigan treatment?
Michigan Wolverines fire Rich Rodriguez as coach
"Under Rodriguez, the program was hit by the kind of news it
dreaded.
Just before the 2009 season, anonymous players told the Detroit
Free Press that the Rodriguez-led program was exceeding NCAA limits
on practice and training time."
NMVol
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nicksjuzunk
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OGbabyaviVol
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I haven't commented much about these rumors flying around; however, the only thing I keep coming back to is why did 3 of our OL all of a sudden and out of the blue think about quitting the team less than 2 weeks before game 1? Something happened, that had to be much deeper than they weren't happy with where they were on the depth chart. The other question is why did all of a sudden 2 of those get inserted into the starting lineup...Wiesman and Kendrick? Maybe they truly were the best that we had, but something is too fishy with all of that. Of course, devil's advocate is that Crowder still isn't starting, which wouldn't fit with my thoughts that something is trying to be covered up. I hope none of this is true, as our program doesn't need this, and I would hate to see CBJ go out like this, after all of the very good things he has done for this program. However, there sure does seem to be way too much smoke with this.
InVOLuntary
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I said the same thing. Kendrick I get cuz he was in the mix at RT, but everything I remember reading about RG was Jack Jones spot to lose. I know he had an ankle injury, but the way they talked about him I figured he would be starting when he got over it. I may have it confused though, to many storylines to keep up with.
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BleedorangeinGA
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Im very disappointed in Swain. He has brought nothing but more rumors to the alleged altercation between CBJ and a player.
He said "I have talked to 5 people that have heard the same thing." Well heck, make me 6 I have heard the same rumor but I dont know it to be true.
He has confirmed with 0 eyewitnesss. You have to have confirmation from eyewitness before you bring this crap storm upon yourself.
Pitiful IMO
He said "I have talked to 5 people that have heard the same thing." Well heck, make me 6 I have heard the same rumor but I dont know it to be true.
He has confirmed with 0 eyewitnesss. You have to have confirmation from eyewitness before you bring this crap storm upon yourself.
Pitiful IMO
nicksjuzunk
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