Program Building vs Winning Programs

[tallyho]

Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

Strength of schedule, depth, skilled position players, need to be taken into consideration also. Vandy had the key elements that Butch didn't have when Dooley left. He had to fill in the gaps. Plus, he was instituting a new read-option offense that many of he players he inherited had no idea how to run it properly. Had we had Boyd at QB instead of Worley and Dobbs last year...we would have been in a bowl game. :rock:

 

[chargervol]

low grumbling started when we didn't beat USU and ASU by 50+....then grew into a crescendo after the UF game...last 2 weeks only adds fuel to amplify the game time mistakes and the what coulda/shoulda beens

Gotcha...
I can't get involved in coulda/shoulda.
Seems you have to assume that the "what if" factor, would have produced the desired outcome, without
evidence.

Bad calls - We get big plays against other teams too so
I must lean toward, every team makes them.

 

[dhvolfan32]

I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

You didnt really just compare UT to ECU???? yes, we're rebuilding. Our tradition is recruiting top players and competing for SEC championships and even National Championships. With that said, if you dont know the history of a team, dont throw out random comparisons, especially a UT/ECU comparison. UT would destroy ECU right now with freshmen and sophmores.

 

[JC61]

Gotcha...
I can't get involved in coulda/shoulda.
Seems you have to assume that the "what if" factor, would have produced the desired outcome, without
evidence.

Bad calls - We get big plays against other teams too so
I must lean toward, every team makes them.

I'm with you....try to stay optimistic most of the time. I do get irritated like everyone else during games, but life's too short to go around miserably grumpy.

 

[87&91ALUM]

First post for new VFL....I am a realist. UT is where it is. We have positives; fan base, history, facilities, etc., and we have challenges; relatively new coaching staff (at UT), a lot of youth as a team. After the coaching revolving door, I am ready to buy in and build something for future generations. I believe Butch will get it done and needs our support. Constructive criticism...fine. If you look at the way fans and media at other schools support their teams, there is ample room for improvement my Tennessee friends. There you go. Beat the Gamecocks!

 

[chargervol]

I'm with you....try to stay optimistic most of the time. I do get irritated like everyone else during games, but life's too short to go around miserably grumpy.

Very simple post but probably the best advice that I have seen.

 

[TacomaJPP]

We should go 6-6 this year, one game better in 2015, and the roof better blow off in 2016. If a pattern similar to that doesn't happen, then we need to look past Butch. Until then, allow him to do his job.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

If Tennessee is not in a program rebuilding phase, there is no such animal. Please understand that when something is at the top of its environment, and is suddenly reduced to the bottom of that environment, that something has to change most of its activities to regain its position at the top of that environment.

It can be compared to having a very nice home that is destroyed. There could be more than one cause for the building being destroyed. However, to replace that home to the same level it was in the neighborhood, it has to be completely destroyed and a new building erected, or one can take what remains of the original building and REBUILD that to the same or even better building that was destroyed. Tennessee is REBUILDING its football program and it is well on its way. I can hardly wait for the process of rebuilding to be completed.

The most important in the rebuilding process is to build in safe guards which prevent the structure of being destroyed again. In the case of rebuilding our program, one of the safe guards is finding a way to eliminate trolls and imposters from the environment.

 

[KingtUT]

Vanderbilt has actually had 4 coaches in the last 6 years and if Mason does not right the ship then we will have 5 coaches in the last 8 years if he can't grab a few SEC wins over the remaining year and next. As much as you don't care to hear it, Vanderbilt and UT are in a fairly similar situation with all the turnover and the youthful rosters. I expect a 9-6 nail biter in Nashville with our MVPs for both teams being the kickers and both of us sitting at home for the holidays.

Bobby Johnson, James Franklin, and Mason. Johnson left a pretty good team for Franklin and Franklin left a decent team for Mason. The situations are nothing alike imo. Never, ever, ever compare Vandy to Ut.

I forgot about Caldwell, just like I'm sure you wish you could.

Your actually somewhat correct though, if we are going to compare Ut to another job it should probably be Vandy, and when you do that...our program is miles ahead.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

"Rebuild" - by definition - means to build something again. The traditions, facilities, support, etc. at Tennessee is built, but the talent on the roster certainly was not when CBJ arrived. He certainly has to rebuild the talent. That means re-establishing recruiting relationships, healing wounds caused by previous coaches, etc. He has to rebuild the expectations, work habits, commitment and many other intangibles that seem to have slipped away in the last few years but are essential to winning football.

That said, I agree that him taking the Tennessee is similar to many of the comparisons that you offer. The real debate lies in the state of the Tennessee program when CBJ took the job. Compared to those other names, how much work did and does he have to do, and how does that translate into an expectation of performance over time? I am not going to get into that debate as it is not one that is likely to be had with any civility and intellectual honesty on VN.

With respect to your latter points, no less an authority than Johnny Majors stated that the situation which Butch inherited was, if anything, worse than what he inherited in 1977.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

I get what you're saying I think but it's semantics.

If you don't like the terminology and the splitting of hairs on wording, this probably isn't a good place to visit.

Tennessee was a national brand and had great facilities well before Butch Jones arrived.

The infrastructure has been in place for a winning program, the execution has just sorely been lacking in recent seasons.

When you say rebuild, I think of Jim Leavitt at South Florida or Snider at K State.

Jones is trying to get the program back on track, not lay the track for the program.

Are you talking about Snyder's first stint at Kansas State or his second? The first term was a full-fledged, build-the-program-from-the-ground-up project as KSU had long been one of the absolute backwaters of college football. His current term qualifies as a rebuild. Although we certainly have the pedigree and history of a traditional power, the decline in overall talent, speed and attrition suffered as a result of multiple coaching changes fully qualifies designating the process initiated by Butch as a "rebuild."

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

How about we compare Franklin and Freezes schedules with Butch's for the first two year? Keep grasping for straws baghead.

 

[Dougie_D]

We are rebuilding our roster. Not our program.

Every team in the nation goes through rebuilding a roster, but not an entire program.

 

[beachbums624]

Word games .

 

[Other_Guy]

It's all about establishing a frame of reference by which to judge Butch Jones and by which to determine whether he will succeed or won't. If we could agree that Franklin and Freeze are better coaches, then we can proceed with determining whether UT should be happy with a coach who is not up to the same standard. It can also serve to disprove the excuse that many here cling to, that Butch inherited the toughest rebuild in all college football.

If we can look at successful rebuilds and see how they progressed from what was inherited to year 1 to year 2 and if we find that the thing they have in common is that every successful coach in the past 20 years who took over a losing program, improved the W/L record at some point in their first two years, then we can say that it's probably not going to work if our coach can't manage to make such improvement.

I just find fact-based analysis like this more worthwhile and more interesting than excuses, slogans, or insults.

I think you could say Penn State job is tougher. But how dk you mean not up to the same standard?
People herr hate Franklin and its.like it unexceptable for him to be considered a better coach than Jones cuz he coached lowly Vandy. Its apparently embarrassing for someone like Vandy to have a really good coach. What if Franklin and Freeze are the 2nd and 3rd best coach in cfb? If Jones isn't as good as they arr doesnt mean he wont be successful to our tradition standards here.
My only point was its almost pointless to compare coaches. Are you happy with what Butch has done in such a short time with such a down program is all that matters.

 

[ajvol01]

I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

The fail is strong in this post.

 

[ajvol01]

We are rebuilding our roster. Not our program.

Every team in the nation goes through rebuilding a roster, but not an entire program.

Derek Dooley = Death Penalty

 

[Sudden Impact]

I thought you were on to something OP, but then I read your post and determined in the first sentence that you have no clue.

 

[ibvolman]

The difference between teams that are not re-building teams and those that are is simple. Teams that do not re-build simply reload. A look at our roster shows that due to the LK recruiting debacle, and the three years of sub-par recruiting by DD left this team with no ammo in the box to reload with.

Even right now we have a roster that contains a lot of freshmen. They are talented, but not experienced enough. Jones is recruiting (building the talent pool) to bring this team back to a place of prominence. Even Freeze said that this team is where Ole Miss was about 2 years ago. we have some talent, but not very much depth. Depth must be built. So yes, we are rebuilding in that aspect.

I predict that by the time the current freshmen are juniors that this team will be one that everyone in the SEC worries about having to play.